Originally Posted by senojekips

No, quite simply, I don't misunderstand anything. They operate under the auspices of the Geneva Conventions and their own Uniform Code of Military Justice.

The act that was committed here was pure barbarism and there is no excuse for it. 99.999% of troops uphold their obligations.

One wrongful killing may be an accident,... but 24 obviously unarmed civilians including women and children?..... You feel that it would be difficult to establish if pre-school aged children are armed terrorists? You are clearly either delusional, or most likely a liar, making childish excuses.

Once again, you are no more than an limp wristed apologist for murderers. You need to grow up, and enter the 20th century then maybe we'll try for the 21st.

You seem to forget that they appeared in court. And in the 21st century (as in the 20th century) circumstances are taken into account. They can increase or decrease the punishment.

Originally Posted by senojekips

Everyone is killed somewhere, the location has no place in the argument here, it is reason why it was done and the fact that it happened at all that is under scrutiny.

Before you go off surmising what night have happened, I think you should perhaps read what is known and what has been admitted to.

What happened was deliberate and absolutely inexcusable.

The location is very important in cases like this. The men from the car, which was pulled over by the Marines were killed in the open, nothing was later found that indicate their involvment in the IED. The houses is a totally different story, the Marines were not able to identify the people inside the buildings, most people cannot see through walls and what is behind a closed door. In the armed conflicts today, the enemy does not wear an uniform, they are operating in a civilian environment, when and if they drop their weapons they are civilians again. We can be happy and it tells a bit how well trained the US military is and the others as well, things like this do not happen so often, the risk for similar incidents are very high. In consideration of the forces operating in Afghanistan, and they were operating in Iraq and the daily circumstances they are living in, we do not have so many incidents like this, it does not excuse the Marines for what they did in Hadita, they were acting according to the information they had and it went wrong at this time.

I remember I was watching a documentary about the Marines and the fighting on Saipan, one Marine described a situation with a bunker/cave, one of his fellow Marines jumped down in the bunker and he was immediately killed by Japanese soldiers inside that bunker. After that they used hand grenades and flame throwers instead and when they had cleared another bunker they investigated it and found a lot of civilians inside that bunker.

Originally Posted by Ghostrider

....The houses is a totally different story, the Marines were not able to identify the people inside the buildings, most people cannot see through walls and what is behind a closed door. .

Eman Waleed, a nine-year-old child who witnessed the incident, described the U.S. Marines entering their house. She said:

"I couldn't see their faces very well - only their guns sticking in to the doorway. I watched them shoot my grandfather, first in the chest and then in the head. Then they killed my granny."[3]

The director of the local hospital in Haditha, Dr Wahid, said that the 24 bodies were brought in two American humvees to the hospital around midnight on November 19. While the Marines claim that the victims had been killed by shrapnel from the roadside bomb and that the men "were saboteurs", Dr Wahid said that there were "no organs slashed by shrapnel in any of the bodies". He further claimed that it appeared that "the victims were shot in the head and chest from close range

Deaths and injuries of Iraqis in HadithaHouse #1—7 killed, 2 injured (but survived), 2 escaped 1. Abdul Hamid Hassan Ali, 76—grandfather, father and husband. Died with nine rounds in the chest and abdomen.2. Khamisa Tuma Ali, 66—wife of Abdul Hamid Hassan Ali3. Rashid Abdul Hamid, 30.4. Walid Abdul Hamid Hassan, 35.5. Jahid Abdul Hamid Hassan, middle-aged man.6. Asma Salman Rasif, 32.7. Abdullah Walid, 4.Injured: Iman, 8, and Abdul Rahman, 5.Escaped: Daughter-in-law, Hiba, escaped with 2-month-old Asia

House #2—8 killed, 1 survivor: Shot at close range and attacked with grenades8. Younis Salim Khafif, 43—husband of Aida Yasin Ahmed, father.9. Aida Yasin Ahmed, 41—wife of Younis Salim Khafif, killed trying to shield her youngest daughter Aisha.10. Muhammad Younis Salim, 8—son.11. Noor Younis Salim, 14—daughter.12. Sabaa Younis Salim, 10—daughter.13. Zainab Younis Salim, 5—daughter.14. Aisha Younis Salim, 3—daughter.15. A 1-year-old girl staying with the family.Survived: Safa Younis Salim, 13.

House #3—4 brothers killed16. Jamal Ahmed, 41.17. Marwan Ahmed, 28.18. Qahtan Ahmed, 24.19. Chasib Ahmed, 27.

Taxi—5 killed: Passengers were students at the Technical Institute in Saqlawiyah20. Ahmed Khidher, taxi driver.21. Akram Hamid Flayeh.22. Khalid Ayada al-Zawi.23. Wajdi Ayada al-Zawi.24. Mohammed Battal Mahmoud.Source: United for Peace and Justice[27]

Anonymous defaced the website of law firm Puckett Faraj this morning and leaked e-mails concerning the sergeant accused of handling 2005′s Haditha Massacre in Iraq.

Sergeant Frank Wuterich was charged with a 2005 US Marine raid in Iraq, which killed 24 unarmed civilians. Wuterich was convicted of negligent dereliction, ending his wait for a homicide trial in a plea bargain. Anonymous released 3GB of e-mails regarding the case and the massacre itself. The group published these e-mails first on a Darknet website, or a site intended to be used when anonymity is desired, as well as to The Pirate Bay. The group also defaced the lawfirm’s website, which is still down for us.

The website deface read, “As part of our ongoing efforts to expose the corruption of the court systems and the brutality of US imperialism, we want to bring attention to USMC SSgt Frank Wuterich who along with his squad murdered dozens of unarmed civilians during the Iraqi Occupation. Can you believe this scumbag had his charges reduced to involuntary manslaughter and got away with only a pay cut?”.......

http://venturebeat.com/2012/02/03/an...ssacre-emails/

So biased, your sources are so biased, I guess you can do much better than that

Biased Time magazine? http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...174649,00.html
Or is it biased because it originates from the director of an Iraqi Hospital. I think Monty posted a link to some pictures of the bodies earlier.

You can hear it yourself from the mouth of a child, literally! Move to to 15:15 here
http://www.democracynow.org/2012/1/2...as_us_massacre

Perhaps this is more your style.
http://warchronicle.com/TheyAreNotKi...OurMarines.htm
Yeah right!

Originally Posted by Ghostrider

The location is very important in cases like this.

Please cite your source which clearly demonstrates that the Geneva Conventions do not apply when clearing houses.

Your attempted argument is an insult to human intelligence.

Originally Posted by Ghostrider

So biased, your sources are so biased, I guess you can do much better than that

So they are biased? are you going to argue that the courts judgments were not?

Generally it could not be said to be "biased" when the evidence clearly supports what is claimed, as it does here.

According to the rules of war you can clear a house, although civilians may be killed. But you can only do it if it is absolutely necessary for military reasons. As a soldier you must decide whether it’s so important that it will cost innocent people their lives. It’s not an easy choice! If you choose to clear the house, then the principle of proportionality applies, i.e. the number of civilians killed has to be in proportion to the military advantage in order to implement the attack. In this case they could not invoke this rule.

Originally Posted by 42RM

According to the rules of war you can clear a house, although civilians may be killed. But you can only do it if it is absolutely necessary for military reasons. As a soldier you must decide whether it’s so important that it will cost innocent people their lives. It’s not an easy choice! If you choose to clear the house, then the principle of proportionality applies, i.e. the number of civilians killed has to be in proportion to the military advantage in order to implement the attack. In this case they could not invoke this rule.

Can you quote a credible source for that?

Remember, that no evidence was found that would in any way implicate those murdered and no combatants were found either. It was deliberate murder, pure and simple. I think you really need to read the evidence (as watered down, as it is). The whole case was a whitewash from start to finish, and I'd bet serious money that if the boot were on the other foot and it happened in the UK, you'd be screaming your tits off about it.

I have little doubt this was a reprisal attack and a severe breach of the Geneva convention. Therefore it constitutes a war crime.

Congressman John Murtha (D-Pennsylvania), a former Marine, was briefed on the Haditha investigation by Marine Corps commandant, Gen. Michael Hagee.
Murtha said, "The reports I have from the highest level: No firing at all. No interaction. No military action at all in this particular incident. It was an explosive device, which killed a Marine. From then on, it was purely shooting people." Marine Corps officials told Murtha that troops shot a woman "in cold blood" as she was bending over her child begging for mercy. Women and children were in their nightclothes when they were killed..........

Like other grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions, these acts of summary execution and willful killing are punishable under the US War Crimes Act. Commanders have a responsibility to make sure civilians are not indiscriminately harmed and that prisoners are not summarily executed. Because rules of engagement are set at the top of the command chain, criminal liability extends beyond the perpetrator under the doctrine of command responsibility. George W. Bush, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld should be charged with war crimes.

http://www.truth-out.org/haditha-mas...qis/1328030635