Creation of the State of Israel - Page 4




 
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Boots
 
June 25th, 2005  
Corocotta
 
 
Sherman, Zionism is a politic ideology, and is not leftist, I would say that is right or even extreme right, it is also ultra-nacionalist (exteme nacionalism brings no good, many examples in history) and racist(http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default...2-7-2002_pg3_2). What part of my post is wrong, if there is some part that you do not agree with tell me, it would be interesting to make an open debate and not only by PM. I think not hundreds, but thousands think like that and sadly are the ones in the power. In my mind is crystal clear wich are the porpouses of Zionism. Good example of extreme nacionalist is Prime Minister Mr. Ariel Sharon. I never said that israel should never had their own state, i said that the partition was unfare, and that is a fact, i would like to see some arguements against this.

Panzerfaust, palestinians,jews, syrians are semitic races and the lived togueter for thousands of years without problems sharing the same land. They have common ancestors.
June 25th, 2005  
SHERMAN
 
 
staurofilakes, to even claim that zionisem is extreme right or left is redicules. Zionisem has to do with one thing only. The belief that:

A) Jews are a nation like all others, and should have their own country.
B) The only possible place for that country is what was for more than 3000 years the Jewish homeland.
C) The only solution to the anti-semetisem that is spread world wide is for Jews to be independent in their own state.

With in that you have Social-Democratic Zionists, who are at the same economical view as all moderate left wing parties in the world. These were the people in power for most of Israels existance. The are Liberal Zionists, Conservative Zionist, Extreme Nationalistic Zionists, Religous-Zionists, and more. Zionisem is not about the treatment of the economy, arabs, or world affairs, it is simply about those 3 points that I mentioned before. It is true that in a way, I belkong to the same political side as some lunatics who live in the territories, but in most ways I dont. Some of the more extreme right wingers here are not even Zionists, they are Ultra Fundamentalist Jews. They believe in the "Great Israel" madness..... Ariel Sharon is certinly not among them, and at this time and place is going forward with a huge retreat that weill leave houndreds of thousends of Palestinians free of Israeli control(and you must ask your self if the PLO is better... ). This extremists are not in power, or there would be no peace with Egypt, Jordan, and no relations with other arab countries....My arguments about the partition are forward and have been said before:
A) The division was mostly by demographics, not resources.
B) The Jews got a huge piece of desert and a very hard to protect shoreline. The Palestinians got furtile lands and easy to protect terrain.
C) And perhaps most critical, the Palestinians did not even get their own state. Instead, Egypt and Jordan took what was by Partition plan a new country, and occupied it until 1967. I dont remember anyone complaining about the Jordanian occupation of the west bamnk or the Egyptian upression in Gaza. And trust me, the ywere much worse to the Palestinians.

Is Israel expected to pay for wrong doing by the entire Arab world and the UN? We took what we could, as there was a knife at our neck. We offered it back several times and only with great affort got a cold peace with Egypt and Jordan.

It is my beliefe that the minute we were no longer underdogs, as in the 1967 war, the european leftists and other simply switched sides. This time it is not about who is the underfdog. Its bout who made all the efforts for peace and learned the hard way that the Arabs rather fight.
This is somthing people around the world havent learned yet.
June 25th, 2005  
Corocotta
 
 
Sherman, I can agree that those three are the basic principles of Zionism, but there are more: The 1968 conference of the WZO adopted the following principles:

•The unity of the Jewish people and the centrality of Israel in Jewish life

•The ingathering of the Jewish people in the historic homeland, Eretz Israel, through aliyah from all countries

•The strengthening of the State of Israel, based on the "prophetic vision of justice and peace"

•The preservation of the identity of the Jewish people through the fostering of Jewish, Hebrew and Zionist education and of Jewish spiritual and cultural values

•The protection of Jewish rights everywhere.

Concerning the demographic partition is important to remember that the The World Zionist Organization's initial strategy was to obtain the permission of the Ottoman Sultan Abd-ul-Hamid II to allow systematic Jewish settlement in Palestine. The good offices of the German Emperor, Wilhelm II, were sought, but nothing came of this. Instead the WZO pursued a strategy of building a homeland through persistent small-scale immigration, and the founding of such bodies as the Jewish National Fund in 1901 and the Anglo-Palestine Bank in 1903. (Before this small-scale inmigration I guess that there were more palestinians that jews living there)
In 1922, the Zionist movement entered a new phase of activity. Its priorities were the escalation of Jewish settlement in Palestine, the building of the institutional foundations of a Jewish state, raising funds for these purposes, and persuading — or forcing — the British authorities not to take any steps which would lead to Palestine moving towards independence as an Arab-majority state. International Jewish opinion remained divided on the merits of the Zionist project. Albert Einstein said: "I am afraid of the inner damage Judaism will sustain, especially from the development of a narrow nationalism within our own ranks."
It is also interesting that In 1937, Ben-Gurion, the father of Israel, and almost all of his party leadership supported a British proposal to create a small Jewish state from which the Arabs had been removed by force. The British plan was soon shelved, but the idea of a Jewish state with a minimal population of Arabs remained an important thread in Labour Zionist thought throughout the remaining period until the creation of Israel.

It would be interesting to talk about the Palestinian exodus, name given to the refugee flight of some 520,000 (Israeli estimate) to 900,000 (Palestinian estimate) Arabs during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, called the Nakba by Palestinians. They fled or were expelled from their homes in the part of Palestine that would become the State of Israel to other parts of Palestine or to neighbouring countries. Today the original refugees and their descendants amount to some 3.5-5.0 million. They are not allowed to come back to their homeland.

I would also like to mention the strong conections btw WZO and US Government, may be this explain the US inconditional help and militar support to Israel.
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Boots
June 25th, 2005  
SHERMAN
 
 
Corocotta, non of the things you said seem wrong to me. So what if the Zionists wanted to farm and live in their homeland? The idea of forcefully or otherwise seperating the 2 populations was a very smart one, and would have made the whole thing easier. Sadly it is now impossible to do. Arabs, at most cases, Israelis because they wish to make it just another Arab country. There are dozens of Arab countrys in the world, all the Jews want is one country to call their own.

The Nakba, which was a great tragedy, was more a result of Arab actions than Israeli ones. During the first stages of the 1948 war the Arab Countries asked the Palestinians to get out of their way. The Palestinians were promissed that once the Jews were thrown into the sea, they can return to their homes.
June 25th, 2005  
Corocotta
 
 
Okey, I get. Israel never did anything wrong. Israel never practiced terrorism(Irgun). The aprobation of UN Resolution 181 was not due to the preasure made by jewish and american Zionist. The partition of Palestina was completely fare. The Palestin exodus was due to the Arabs, Israel had nothing to do. The 4 million palestine in the exile do not come back to their homeland because they do not want to, israel is welcoming them with open arms! In Israel is not taking place an apartheid. Israel never broke international law. In Israel there are not secret jails like Guantanamo. The wall that separetes Israel from palestine is a litle fence.
June 25th, 2005  
SHERMAN
 
 
I have no need to make a case Israel, as you do such a fine job of telling all our evil doings and even making some up. So I just ry to make clear what I see as unclear or pure BS. Let me do this for this post as well...

Quote:
The aprobation of UN Resolution 181 was not due to the preasure made by jewish and american Zionist
So what? Putting pressure in the right places to get what you want is what politics is all about.

Quote:
The partition of Palestina was completely fare
No, but it was the best they could do at the time. Certinly looking back we can critisize it, but it was certinly not intended to hurt the Palestinians.

Quote:
The Palestin exodus was due to the Arabs, Israel had nothing to do
Yes, like I said, most of the 1948 refugees either left on their own or as a result of a request by the Arab countries. However, some of them were driven out of their homes.

Quote:
The 4 million palestine in the exile do not come back to their homeland because they do not want to, israel is welcoming them with open arms!
Why should we? They are our enemy for the past 100 years, are you really naive enough to think they can come back and settle in Tel Aviv or Jaffa?

Quote:
Israel is not taking place an apartheid.
That is just BS. There is no apartheid here, and whoever claims this shows poor knowledge of the real apartheid regieme, the middle east, israel, and the world in general.

Quote:
Israel never broke international law
Many times, no doubt, like most war fighting countries. Usually it is not done by orders from above but rather by inviduals in the field.

Quote:
In Israel there are not secret jails like Guantanamo
Should we keep some of the most dangoures people on earth in cute little apartments and let all their friend know where they are?

Quote:
The wall that separetes Israel from palestine is a litle fence.
I sure hope(and know since i have seen it) that it is a large, very protected wall.... And due to it terrorist attacks have been prevented countless times.
June 26th, 2005  
Corocotta
 
 
Quote:
The aprobation of UN Resolution 181 was not due to the preasure made by jewish and american Zionist


So what? Putting pressure in the right places to get what you want is what politics is all about.
Well, one thing is politic preasure and other one is blackmailing



Quote:
The partition of Palestina was completely fare


No, but it was the best they could do at the time. Certinly looking back we can critisize it, but it was certinly not intended to hurt the Palestinians.
To ignore the obvious is a way of consent.

Quote:
The Palestin exodus was due to the Arabs, Israel had nothing to do


Yes, like I said, most of the 1948 refugees either left on their own or as a result of a request by the Arab countries. However, some of them were driven out of their homes.
Well, we agree at one point!

Quote:
The 4 million palestine in the exile do not come back to their homeland because they do not want to, israel is welcoming them with open arms!


Why should we? They are our enemy for the past 100 years, are you really naive enough to think they can come back and settle in Tel Aviv or Jaffa?
I guess that most of them are civilians, do not think that they are a big risk for one of the biggest armies in the world.

Quote:
Israel is not taking place an apartheid.


That is just BS. There is no apartheid here, and whoever claims this shows poor knowledge of the real apartheid regieme, the middle east, israel, and the world in general.
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/isra....htm#TopOfPage
http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-genocide...theidlaws.html
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2004/698/op11.htm
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2004/699/op11.htm
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pa...1&contrassID=2
http://www.washington-report.org/bac...91/9104064.htm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Sto...297891,00.html

Quote:
In Israel there are not secret jails like Guantanamo


Should we keep some of the most dangoures people on earth in cute little apartments and let all their friend know where they are?
And are they treated the same?
Quote:
The wall that separetes Israel from palestine is a litle fence.


I sure hope(and know since i have seen it) that it is a large, very protected wall.... And due to it terrorist attacks have been prevented countless times..
The civilian people is not afected by the wall???
June 26th, 2005  
Redneck
 
 
Corocotta, if you make an allegation against a nation such as some of those you have above (namely "blackmail") you had damn well better be prepared to back those allegations up. Provide some proof of your accusation immediately or remove it.
June 26th, 2005  
panzerfaust
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snauhi
Quote:
Originally Posted by panzerfaust
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snauhi
Quote:
Originally Posted by staurofilakes
I guess that the answer is Zionism and Arab fanatics.
What is bad with zionism? Why can Finns have there own country but not Jews?
because finland is the natural homeland of finns, and palestine is the same for palestinians,jews don't have any own country!
There is no such country as Palestina and it never existed, the only thing that Palestina does is support terrorism... And jews have Israel...


"Israel is an illegal state, it's in stolen land, the proclamation of a jewish state in an arabic land in 1948 was an injustice, many were forced to leave their homes and many were killed ( we don't forget dir yassine) israel is a zionnist state and should return lands to their OWNERS if wants peace, golan is a historical jewish land too!"

i say it once again


palestinians fights for their freedom against jewish occupation, ISRAEL IS A TERRORIST STATE FOUNDED BY TERRORISTS ( STERN, HAGGANAH) THEY TOOK LAND BY SPILLING INNOCENT BLOOD
June 26th, 2005  
panzerfaust
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SHERMAN
Corocotta, non of the things you said seem wrong to me. So what if the Zionists wanted to farm and live in their homeland? The idea of forcefully or otherwise seperating the 2 populations was a very smart one, and would have made the whole thing easier. Sadly it is now impossible to do. Arabs, at most cases, Israelis because they wish to make it just another Arab country. There are dozens of Arab countrys in the world, all the Jews want is one country to call their own.

The Nakba, which was a great tragedy, was more a result of Arab actions than Israeli ones. During the first stages of the 1948 war the Arab Countries asked the Palestinians to get out of their way. The Palestinians were promissed that once the Jews were thrown into the sea, they can return to their homes.
why do jews not proclame egypt as "jewish land" they lived there before moving to palestine in pharao's time?and they lived in arabia as well, it's a jewish historical land too?