The case against Arming Pirates

"Why on earth would you want to go through the trouble of trying to take a guy out with a sniper rifle if you could spray them with automatic fire from a further range? Actually Wallabies makes a valid point. Bror, it's a stupid idea. I think most people here who know a thing or two about this stuff all agree, it's a stupid idea."

I guess I go with what I know ... mostly civilian firearms and semi-auto variants of assault weapons. Compared with the efforts currently being used (next to nothing) I thought it could be effective.

And since we're talking about civilian vessels and private sector security teams, how much harder would it be to get a security team armed and trained with crew-served automatic weapons versus one with commercially-available (in the US) hunting/target rifles and non-automatic weapons? I know of no one with a class III license ... nor do I know exactly the limits of such.

Blackwater has fully automatic weapons so there must be provisions for groups to be armed similarly ...
 
Believe me, for these companies, getting their hands on a fully automatic weapon isn't going to be a problem. In many parts of the world they could get away with murder if they wanted to (and many similar sized companies have).
And you've kind of dragged my argument into a strange direction.
I said that standard, semi-automatic rifles would do the job, but dicking around with a sniper rifle trying to get a good shot at a fast moving, highly unstable and obscured target is kind of ridiculous.
Also, the part about automatic fire is an answer to Matteo's argument of having M-16s over semi-automatic AR-15s because of the M-16's ability to fire automatic. I said that if automatic fire were required, a SAW or GPMG would do far better because your basic rifle used on automatic is generally for situations when you wished you had a shot gun.
 
I liked the CIWS + radar idea from the other piracy thread. Or at least a .50BMG machinegun. You don't have to worry about the crew's training if the pirates become pink mist before getting in range of your boat. Not sure how much port towns would like seeing a big rotary cannon on your deck, though.
 
Well, if obtaining real military hardware is not a difficult hurdle then by all means, break out the Ma Deuces! :m1:


Seriously. I’m not the one to use a tack hammer when a sledge is required.

But what I can’t get over about this whole Somali pirate business is the complete lack of resistance by the merchant ships and their crews up until a few weeks ago. I believe in the case involving the Maersk Alabama they fended off the first hijack attempt with water cannons. Then, more recently, Israeli mercenaries used handguns to fend off an attack on that Italian cruise ship. These guys are opportunists and cowards so it doesn’t take much to get them to turn tail and run. :sarc:


So, I still have to think one decent rifleman would be more than capable of thwarting most attacks.

Anyway, I’ve been thinking about this since the beginning of this year and wondered to myself, if I were going there … or sending forces to guard a ship … just what sort of vessel would make a good security vessel/pirate hunter?

I searched on-line and found some line drawings of some ships and used one as a starting point to mock up this ship:

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee149/BrorJace/Miscellaneous/Anti-PiratePatrolShip.gif

(helicopter sold separately)

My criteria included having to hire/train crews myself so a massive ship with high-tech firepower was not an option. Sea-going versions of Stinger missiles and the like were ruled out. That leaves trusty, old-school firepower with optical sights. I also gave some thought to ammunition availability, especially in the 3rd world. So, with the exception of the .50 cals (I’m a sucker for the classics), I figured the Russian weapons to be a very good choice.

The twin .50 cals would be used the most as we already know it doesn’t take much to keep these guys at bay. The twin 23mm would be a step up in case the pirates use a larger ship or employ weapons with a bit more range. The 100mm tank gun (housed in a simple fabricated turret thick enough to stop rounds up to 14.5mm) is a versatile piece in case you come across a mother ship or larger target.

None of these weapons is particularly expensive … so why the heck not?

A helipad is always a useful thing to ferry people and supplies to and from the ship. You never know when a port won’t allow you in because your ship is bristling with weapons. :sarc:


And, if you want to suddenly break the no-high-tech-firepower rule, you can always add a TOW/Milan/Hellfire equipped helicopter. Heck, even a chin mounted minigun would be more than adequate to finish off a fleeing Zodiac. :)
 
The idea is to keep it economical.
That anti-pirate boat is anything but that. You could do with a far smaller ship and if you want aerial surveilance you can use a small UAV (basically no more sophisticated than a remote controlled plane with some cameras on it).
Truth is, you don't even need a separate boat. You can just have your crew on board the ship that you're escorting.
What is everyone's obsession with tackling $2,000 problems by spending over a million bucks?
 
senojekips said:
Glad to see it, "Kiddie calibres" should be kept in the nursery for the children to play with.
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lol I like your decription Spike lol

However, as I stated before a couple of 50 cals or even GPMG's would do a tremendous job of keeping pirates at bay.

Who gives a toss if arming merchant ships is against international law, self defence is a God given right. The Munich crisis and the "Peace in our time" debacle (to name one scenario) shows that appeasement and hand wringing by bleeding heart liberals doesn't work.
 
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you dont need machineguns, you dont need "fireteams". you need 4 guys with M14s pistols and shotguns. Just a month ago Israeli security guards hired by an italian cruise ship fired at abd scared off a pirate attack boat. Pirates arnt going to fight against somthing that fights back. If you have a few guys, that have basic military training and a little militay experience, you can scare them off. Seriously, and im not trying to boos my own reputation, just as ab examople to how low tech and low cost you can make it...Me and 3 other guys with my sort of training with full length rifles and pistols could probably drive off a small pirate attack. Im not even talking about people with higher levels of training. I dont know about your countries but in israel there are litterally thousends of guys with my sort of training just waiting to get a decent paying job. For 1400 US $ a month plus food and sleep on board the ship i can bring you 10 in one week, just guys i know personnaly.
 
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Sherman, you are trying to be too realistic about this. We are just letting our tiny brains have some exercise and fun:)

However,your answer is certainly the most practical solution for shipping companies. They are as miserable as cat sh!t when it comes to parting with a dollar.
 
One problem I still see (and I am sorry to repeat myself):

The pirates are not dumbasses. Like any military force, they will adapt to new threats. They have the coaches, the human material and the dough to put up with armed crews, just did not needed to up to the moment.

I recall having advertised to the risk of multi-directional attacks in the future either in this or the other pirate thread, and was smiled at: Well, it is not future anymore, the German frighter captured had a 4-directional attack incoming with a total of 32 pirates happily firing suppressively away, no reason to believe this will not be repeated and honed to perfection.

Even armed, I do not see just 4 sec guys defending against this type of synchronized 4 (5, 6, 8) angles attack (once one team makes it onboard, sec teams are game) without again rising cost to an unacceptable level from overall protection POV.

Just my 2c,

Rattler
 
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Cdt Matteo said:
Besides, arming sailors is nothing new, they've been armed for ages. Give sailors some M14s, or M16s (not AR-15s because the automatic capability is more useful of an M16).
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No. Because most people can't hit crap with an M16 on full auto. Muzzle raise and climb. First couple rounds are on target the rest go sailing off.
 
”The idea is to keep it economical … What is everyone's obsession with tackling $2,000 problems by spending over a million bucks?”

Like senojekips said, it’s fun. And my idea (fantasy, more like it) is not that far off from what Blackwater is already doing. They bought a former NOAA ship, the MacArthur:

http://washingtontimes.com/news/2008/dec/04/blackwater-joins-fight-against-sea-piracy/

:CG: It is 183 feet long (damn close to my imaginary vessel’s length) and has a crew of 45. Somewhere it is described as “heavily armed” but other than machine guns that can be stored out of view, it does not appear to have any serious armaments.

My ship has greater armament … but then again, it only cost me a little time with Microsoft Paint. :m1:

Still, the D-10T is the gun out of a T-54/55 … and was made from the forties right up until 1979. It’s fairly common so the ammo for it should be plentiful and cheap … and even includes some new guided rounds if you are so inclined. The Finns use these same guns (again, taken from old T54/55 tank turrets) for coastal defense batteries.

And, if you zig zag back and forth through the most dangerous waters with a ship like this, taking on contracts for 2-3 days at a time (going both ways), it could be quite profitable. Through rotation of crews (note the helipad) you could be on contract 24/7 for weeks or months at a time. In this age of ubiquitous wireless communication, this is easily do-able. You’d probably be limited by fuel alone … the only commodity you couldn’t bring in by helicopter.

And if Rattler is correct and the pirates continue to up their game, you’d already be equipped to deal with it. Firepower is kinda like gravy. In most situations, it never hurts to have a lil’ extra. :pirate:
 
You'd only need one I think, two at a stretch
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I know you only need 1 firing but container ships are pretty big so you would have to station them around the ship for 360 degree security.

At the moment you may only need rifles to keep them off, but if everyone gets armed and fights back then the pirates will get in bigger groups and will have to take more chances.

you need 4 guys with M14s pistols and shotguns.
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Why put yourself at risk, if you can shoot someone with a shotgun or a pistol then they can shoot you.

Fire arms and ammo cost **** all, the major money spender will be paying security teams. You can't have the crew do it because they have their own job to do.
 
Bror, I am aware of the Blackwater ship idea and personally in terms of ship security, don't see any point in it. That boat they designed seems more like a pirate hunting vessel.
Let's face it, when a ship is about to be attacked by pirates, you need a response on hand immediately. You don't have time to sail all the way to the ship in distress. By then either the pirates would have failed and taken off or they would already have their hostages.
 
"Let's face it, when a ship is about to be attacked by pirates, you need a response on hand immediately."

I agree, by the time the pirates begin to engage, you better be a handful of miles or less (15-20 minutes max) from the ship under assault or forget it.

I think the Bainbridge responded within an hour to a distress call weeks ago but by the time it got there, the pirates had left.

My vessel would have to accompany its principal (or a small convoy of ships) closely ... until it got to the point where the threat was considered acceptable and then it could break off and pick up another principle for the return voyage through the danger zone. Pirates would likely give us a very wide berth and seek easier prey ... and if I were the security contractor (or merely leasing the boat I designed to them) that would be OK with me. :p

The MacArthur looks like a multi-role ship. Notice the orange Zode'? Now, why would you want to put operators in that thing to deal with pirates ... unless you plan on assaulting a hijacked ship and taking it back.

At that point I step back and say: "Whoah, this mess just climbed way above my pay grade." :army:
 
Wallabies said:
I know you only need 1 firing but container ships are pretty big so you would have to station them around the ship for 360 degree security.
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I have sailed on just the occasional box boat, and I think that once one pirate boat got brassed up, any others would think very carefully about getting too close. They don't know how many weapons you have.
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Bror Jace said:
"Let's face it, when a ship is about to be attacked by pirates, you need a response on hand immediately."

I agree, by the time the pirates begin to engage, you better be a handful of miles or less (15-20 minutes max) from the ship under assault or forget it.

I think the Bainbridge responded within an hour to a distress call weeks ago but by the time it got there, the pirates had left.

My vessel would have to accompany its principal (or a small convoy of ships) closely ... until it got to the point where the threat was considered acceptable and then it could break off and pick up another principle for the return voyage through the danger zone. Pirates would likely give us a very wide berth and seek easier prey ... and if I were the security contractor (or merely leasing the boat I designed to them) that would be OK with me. :p

The MacArthur looks like a multi-role ship. Notice the orange Zode'? Now, why would you want to put operators in that thing to deal with pirates ... unless you plan on assaulting a hijacked ship and taking it back.

At that point I step back and say: "Whoah, this mess just climbed way above my pay grade." :army:
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Actually your response time would be even shorter. Often you can't tell a fishing boat from a pirate boat other than what they look like from real close and the way they behave. Just because one appears at night doesn't automatically make him a pirate either. Some fishermen fish at night.
Orange zodiacs could be used to send operators onto fishing vessels or suspected mother ships to search for weapons etc. without endangering the more expensive ship. Also from a distance, the main patrol boat can provide better covering fire and observation.
If your ship is accompanying any vessel, imagine the number of vessels you're gonig to need in the viewpoint of the company in need to hire security.
I did think of a way to have two supply ships on either side of the dangerous waters give and take security crews to and from clients but even then that would be rather costly.
 
I have sailed on just the occasional box boat, and I think that once one pirate boat got brassed up, any others would think very carefully about getting too close. They don't know how many weapons you have.
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The point is that the gun on the stern isn't going to have the field of fire to reach the bow.
 
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