Bush's farwell present from the Iraqi people

papasha40 said:
I agree with you. It is a shame people are comparing George W Bush to Adolph Hitler. Adolph Hitler was a fantacist. He was also a very muddled man who did things because of horoscopes and card readings. In other words, when he caused misery, his reasons were stupid, superstitious, and basically the product of a diseased brain. His rabid hate for Jews and Slavs is most definatly the product of a stunted world outlook. The man was a fruitcake.

Dubya, on the other hand. though not the brightest bulb in the room is a realist, and most definatly an opportunist. With the help of Mr. Cheney, Mr. Rumsfield and a few others the great excuse of WMD was invented to pilfer the the oil and mineral rights of a sovergn nation. Even in the charter of the United Nations this action has been described as an illegal war. I truly feel sorry for Ms. Condeleeza Rice who is an incredibly intelligent person working within a cesspool of war profiteers. Mr.Colin Powell also, should have gotten away from this pack of thieves well before he did. Its tragic It took him as long as it did. No, you are right its a shame people describe George W Bush to Adolph Hitler. A much closer fit would be Joseph Stalin.
Click to expand...

That's not what I meant at all. I was simply pointing out that comparing President Bush to Hitler (or even Stalin as you have done) was unfair.

I'm going to respond to your comment about WMD's with some questions of my own.
1. Did or did not Saddam Hussein use WMD's (Chemical Weapons) on his own people?
2. What makes you think that since he had them before, he would not use them again?
3. Where do you think he got them, or the technology to make them?
4. If waiting 10 years for Saddam to comply with UN inspectors isn;t too long, how long should we wait?
5. How much richer would Khofi Annan allow his son to get before he really started pushing Saddam to allow inspectors in?
 
HokieMSG said:
That's not what I meant at all. I was simply pointing out that comparing President Bush to Hitler (or even Stalin as you have done) was unfair.

I'm going to respond to your comment about WMD's with some questions of my own.
1. Did or did not Saddam Hussein use WMD's (Chemical Weapons) on his own people?
2. What makes you think that since he had them before, he would not use them again?
3. Where do you think he got them, or the technology to make them?
4. If waiting 10 years for Saddam to comply with UN inspectors isn;t too long, how long should we wait?
5. How much richer would Khofi Annan allow his son to get before he really started pushing Saddam to allow inspectors in?
Click to expand...

1) Yes he did but why was it perfectly acceptable for you to sell him WMDs to use on Iranians (I think even the most biased of individuals would agree that in selling someone a WMD you also must believe he intends to use them) but not in his own civil war?

2) Nothing at all but that same rule applies to 90% of the worlds despots why is it that only Iraq was singled out?

3) He got the technology from many nations (France, USA, Russia to name a few) which is why many find it ironic that he was charged with using them by the people that gave them to him, it is kind of like me giving a firearm to a crazed lunatic and then being surprised and outraged that he shot someone.

4) Didn't have to wait 10 years for him to comply as he obviously had complied hence the lack of evidence from the UN weapon inspectors and subsequent post invasion searches.

5) Irrelevant as there were many snouts in the Iraq trough, including American and New Zealand companies and individuals it is silly to point the finger at one when everyone was doing it.

Lets be honest here and realise that the reasons for the Iraq invasion were not to get rid of a dictator and not to free the Iraqi people because had he been pro-west he would still be there gassing his people with the blessings of a grateful west and more than likely not to get hold of the oil although I suspect oil was the reason for Iraq being selected.

I am almost 100% certain that the reasons for invading Iraq were political, one year out from an election Bin Laden was no were to be seen, Afghanistan was going nowhere fast and 9/11 was still in fore front of peoples minds what better electioneering than to be a victorious President in election year by defeating a sanction ravaged nation that was already a world pariah.
 
Last edited:
Excellent post Monty, agree with all of this. Someone had to placate the Republicans for 9/11 and Saddam was the Wests main whipping boy. The oil is an interesting one, didn't Bush have financial interests in this area and may have wanted to make this commodity as scarce as possible to keep the price high?
 
MontyB said:
1) Yes he did but why was it perfectly acceptable for you to sell him WMDs to use on Iranians (I think even the most biased of individuals would agree that in selling someone a WMD you also must believe he intends to use them) but not in his own civil war?

2) Nothing at all but that same rule applies to 90% of the worlds despots why is it that only Iraq was singled out?

3) He got the technology from many nations (France, USA, Russia to name a few) which is why many find it ironic that he was charged with using them by the people that gave them to him, it is kind of like me giving a firearm to a crazed lunatic and then being surprised and outraged that he shot someone.

4) Didn't have to wait 10 years for him to comply as he obviously had complied hence the lack of evidence from the UN weapon inspectors and subsequent post invasion searches.

5) Irrelevant as there were many snouts in the Iraq trough, including American and New Zealand companies and individuals it is silly to point the finger at one when everyone was doing it.

Lets be honest here and realise that the reasons for the Iraq invasion were not to get rid of a dictator and not to free the Iraqi people because had he been pro-west he would still be there gassing his people with the blessings of a grateful west and more than likely not to get hold of the oil although I suspect oil was the reason for Iraq being selected.

I am almost 100% certain that the reasons for invading Iraq were political, one year out from an election Bin Laden was no were to be seen, Afghanistan was going nowhere fast and 9/11 was still in fore front of peoples minds what better electioneering than to be a victorious President in election year by defeating a sanction ravaged nation that was already a world pariah.
Click to expand...

1. Do you have any evidence that the US either supplied ro sold WMD technology or weapons to Iraq?

2. Saddam was singled out for any number or reasons. Yes, the intel was faulty but a majority of Iraqis are living freer becuase of it.

3. See Reply #1.

4. I was talking about his non compliance with the inspection process. He dodged allowing inspectors full access for almost 10 years. Beacuse the inspectors didn;t find evidence is suspect as Saddam had plenty of time to hide the evidence.

5. See the following link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil-for-Food_Programme

I quote from this article:

"Peter van Walsum, the now-retired Ambassador of the Netherlands to the United Nations and chairman of the Iraq sanctions committee from 1999 to 2000, speculated in a recent book that Iraq deliberately divided the Security Council by awarding contracts to France, Russia, and China but not to the United Kingdom and the United States."

Even though it was said that the US knew about it...

From Wikipedia.
US Senator Carl Levin (D-Michigan) is quoted in an interview for the New York Times as saying, "There is no question that the bulk of the illicit oil revenues came from the open sale of Iraqi oil to Jordan and to Turkey, and that that was a way of going around the Oil-for-Food Programme [and that] we were fully aware of the bypass and looked the other way."

begs the question. Why was nothing done about the corruption?

The fact that everyone was doing it or looking the other way as the US was still does not make it right. Companies and individuals that profited from this should be held accountable.

Why does the discussion always go back to the US trying to hijack Iraqi oil?
Oil prices increased after the invasion.
The only reason gas is so cheap in the US now is because there is an excess of supply due to the recession.
 
HokieMSG said:
1. Do you have any evidence that the US either supplied ro sold WMD technology or weapons to Iraq?
Click to expand...


Foreign Suppliers to Iraq's Biological Weapons Program

Obtain Microbial Seed Stock for Standard or Novel Agent

Agriculture and Water Resource Department:


  • On 3/21/86, the US Department of Commerce issued a license to the American Type Culture Collection (ATCC) to export aspergillus fungal cultures, used in the production of aflatoxin, to Iraq. ATCC officials said the cultures were not delivered.[1]
Atomic Energy Commission:


  • Between 1985-89, ATCC made 17 shipments of "attenuated strains of various toxins and bacteria" to Iraq’s Atomic Energy Commission.[2]
Basra University:


  • According to a 1991 US military intelligence memo, Japanese scientists had been assisting scientists from Basra University since 1984 in researching mycotoxins produced by soil fungi, including aflatoxin. The Japanese-Iraqi team used three species of aspergillus mold to produce aflatoxin.[3]
  • In 1985, the US Centers for Disease Control (CDC) sent a shipment of West Nile Fever virus to an Iraqi researcher.[4]
College of Medicine (Baghdad):


  • On 11/30/84, the US Department of Commerce issued a license to ATCC to export aspergillus fungal cultures to Iraq for delivery to the College of Medicine in Baghdad. ATCC officials said the cultures were not delivered.[5]
State Establishment for Pesticide Production (SEPP):


  • Iraq’s State Establishment for Pesticide Production (SEPP) ordered incubators and culture media from Germany’s Water Engineering Trading (W.E.T.).[6]
Salman Pak:


  • In 1985, the CDC sent three shipments of West Nile Fever virus to Iraq for use in medical research.[7]
University of Baghdad:


  • Between 1985-1989, the ATCC supplied Iraq with several pathogens, including Clostridium botulinum, and various strains of anthrax.[8]
Unspecified Locations:


  • Between 1985-89, US firms exported Bacillus anthracis (anthrax), Clostridium botulinum, Histoplasma capsulatam, Brucella melitensis, Clostridium perfringens (gas gangrene), Clostridium tetani (tentanus), Escherichia coli, and "dozens of other pathogenic biological agents," to Iraq.[9]
  • Between 1985-89, the US firm ATCC sent Iraq up to 70 shipments including 21 strains of anthrax, 15 Class III pathogens, E. coli, Salmonella cholerasuis, Clostridium botulinum, Brucella meliteusis, and Clostidium perfringens. [This may include shipments already listed to the Agriculture and Water Resource Department, Atomic Energy Commission, and College of Medicine].[10]
  • Between 1984-89, the CDC sent Iraq more than 80 agents, including botulinum toxoid, Yersinia pestis, dengue virus, and West Nile antigen and antibody. [This may include shipments already listed to Basra University, and Salman Pak.][11]
  • In 1988, Iraq unsuccessfully attempted to obtain biological agents from the UK military research center at Porton Down.[12]
  • In 2/87, Germany’s Sigma Chemie supplied seven ounces of trichothecene mycotoxin, including T-2 toxin and HT-2 toxin, to the German firm Plato Kuehn, which indicated that the material would be exported to Iraq.[13]
  • In 1987, Josef Kuhn of Germany delivered 100 milligrams of trichothecene mycotoxin T-2 to Iraq.[14]
  • According to US Senator John McCain, Iraq obtained tularemia virus from the United States. The US Department of State said it had found no evidence to support Senator McCain’s allegation.[15]
  • Iraq obtained "deadly pathogens" from the Pasteur Institute in Paris.[16]

Notes:


  1. John Hanchette and Norm Brewer, "U.N., Intelligence Reports Show Iraq Could Have Spread Deadly Aflatoxin," Gannett News Service, December 7, 1996.
  2. Eric Nadler, and Robert Windrem, "Deadly Contagion: How We Helped Iraq get Germ Weapons," The New Republic, February 4, 1991, p. 18.
  3. John Hanchette and Norm Brewer, "U.N., Intelligence Reports Show Iraq Could Have Spread Deadly Aflatoxin," Gannett News Service, December 7, 1996.
  4. Eric Nadler, and Robert Windrem, "Deadly Contagion: How We Helped Iraq get Germ Weapons," The New Republic, February 4, 1991, p. 18. Bill Lambrecht, "'Satan’s Bug': U.S. Readies for Possible Iraqi Use of Bacteria," St. Louis Post-Dispatch, September 10, 1990, p. 1A. Chuck Raasch and Robert Barton, "U.S. Firms Sold Iraq Potential Warfare Material, Hill Officials," Gannett News Service, August 23, 1998. Michael White, "207 Western Companies Sold Chemicals, technology to Iraq, Report Says," AP, October 3, 1990.
  5. John Hanchette and Norm Brewer, "U.N., Intelligence Reports Show Iraq Could Have Spread Deadly Aflatoxin," Gannett News Service, December 7, 1996.
  6. "We Have Surprises," Der Spiegel, October 8, 1990, p. 148-152; in FBIS-WEU-90-196, (10 October 1990).
  7. Valerie Kuklenski, "Western Firms Supplied Iraq with Chemical Weapons," UPI, October 2, 1990.
  8. Although the pathogens were sent to the University of Baghdad, the order was paid for by the Iraqi military. The anthrax strains originated in the UK and US military biological weapons programs. R. Jeffery Smith, "Iraq’s Drive for a Biological Arsenal; U.N. Pursuing 25 Germ Warheads It Believes Are Still Loaded with Deadly Toxin," Washington Post, November 21, 1997, p. A1. Al J. Venter, "UNSCOM Odyssey: The Search for Saddam’s Biological Arsenal," Jane's Intelligence Review, March 1998, p. 19.
  9. William Blum, "Anthrax for Export: U.S. Companies Sold Iraq the Ingredients for a Witch’s Brew," The Progressive, 4 (April 1998), p. 18.
  10. Michael White, "UK Anthrax Strains ‘Sold to Iraq’," The Guardian, April 3, 1998, p. 10; Martin Hickman, "Britain Exported Anthrax to Iraq Says Lib Dem," Press Association, April 2, 1998; Keith Bradsher, "Senator Says U.S. Let Iraq Get Lethal Viruses," The New York Times, February 10, 1994, p. A9; Kevin Merida and John Mintz, "Rockville Firm Shipped Germ Agents to Iraq, Riegle Says," The Washington Post, February 10, 1994, p. A8; William Blum, "Anthrax for Export: U.S. Companies Sold Iraq the Ingredients for a Witch’s Brew," The Progressive, April 1998, p. 18; Jim Abrams, "U.S. Firms Sold Possible Biological warfare Agents to Iraq," Associated Press, February 10, 1994; "Conflict Alleged for Head of Study on Gulf War Illness," The Baltimore Sun, November 29, 1996, P. 20A.
  11. Leonard A. Cole, The Eleventh Plague: The Politics of Biological and Chemical Warfare, (New York: W.H. Freeman and Company, 1997), p. 85-86.
  12. R. Jeffery Smith, "Iraq’s Drive for a Biological Arsenal; U.N. Pursuing 25 Germ Warheads It Believes Are Still Loaded with Deadly Toxin," Washington Post, November 21, 1997, p. A1.
  13. "W. German Firm Says Toxic Chemicals Went to Iraq," Reuters, January 30, 1989. "Magazine: German Firms Supplied Toxic Chemicals to Iraq," UPI, January 29, 1989.
  14. "Worse Than Plague," Der Spiegel; in "Der Spiegel on German Arms Sales to Iraq – ‘Worse Than the Plague’," Telegram from the US Embassy in Bonn to the Secretary of State, August 16, 1990 (Released December 16, 1996).
  15. Reuters, "State Department Probes Charge of U.S. Bio Weapon Aid to Iraq," January 26, 1989. Reuter, "State Department Disputes Senator on Biological Weapon for Iraq," January 26, 1989.
  16. R. Jeffery Smith, "Iraq’s Drive for a Biological Arsenal; U.N. Pursuing 25 Germ Warheads It Believes Are Still Loaded with Deadly Toxin," Washington Post, November 21, 1997, p. A1.
 
Many British connections as well, both in the Education of senior personnel in the Iraqi regime and the supply of knowledge and materiel to Iraq.

Rihab Taha received her Ph.D in plant toxins from the Universirty on Norwich UK. She was married to the British-educated General Dr. Amir Mohammad Rashid al-Ubaidi, the former Iraqi oil minister and director of Iraq's Military Industrial Corporation, which was responsible for Saddam's advanced weapons programs. Although Taha told her fellow students at Norwich that she wanted to return to Iraq to teach biology, she went instead to work for Iraq's germ warfare program. In 1985, she worked in the al-Muthanna chemical plant near Baghdad, and later became chief production officer in al-Hakam/al-Hakum, Iraq's top-secret biological-warfare facility at the time. In 1995, …..the Iraqi government had just purchased 10 tons of growth media from a British company called Oxoid. Taha admitted to the inspectors that her biological weapons agency had grown 19,000 litres of botulism toxin; [6] 8,000 litres of anthrax; 2,000 litres of aflatoxins, which can cause liver cancer; clostridium perfringens, a bacterium that can cause gas gangrene; and ricin, a castor bean derivative which can kill by inhibiting protein synthesis. She also admitted conducting research into cholera, salmonella, foot and mouth disease, and camel pox, a disease that uses the same growth techniqes as smallpox, but which is safer for researchers to work with. It was because of the discovery of Taha's work with camel pox that the U.S. and British intelligence services feared Saddam Hussein may have been planning to weaponize the smallpox virus. Iraq had a smallpox outbreak in the 70s and UNSCOM scientists believe the government would have retained contaminated material.



The Al-Arabi Trading Co. was headquartered in Baghdad, and appears to have been under the control of Iraq's main weapons complex, the Nassr State Enterprise for Mechanical Industries. In 1987, Al-Arabi set up its main procurement front in London, a holding company called Technology Development Group or TDG. In 1987, TDG set up a firm called TMG Engineering [TMG] which was the vehicle used to purchase a well-established British machine tool maker Matrix-Churchill Ltd … the United Kingdom's premier toolmaker and a major supplier of machine tools to arsenals around the world. Acquiring Matrix-Churchill gave Iraq access, not only to the machine tools, but also the computer programming, tooling, and other components needed to make a wide variety of munitions as well as other applications in aerospace and nuclear industries. The purchase could be construed as one big intelligence gathering operation for Iraq.
Many others see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_support_for_Iraq_during_the_Iran-Iraq_war
 
Yep the entire western world built Iraq's WMD program, turned a blind eye to them using it against Iran and then promptly used it as an excuse to turn the country into a pariah state.

PS who didn't see this coming...

http://sockandawe.com/
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the game, perhaps they could have included his silly little dog and called it sock and paw!
 
Monty. Thank you for providing this information. I will begin examining it soon. I am plesantly surprised that you provided this. I'm doing some research of my own and the info you provided is appreciated and welcome.
 
The main mistake that most people make is they say "the United States and Saddam Hussein were friends." This isn't really true. Saddam was more like a disturbing partner that was supported because he was a pain in the ass for someone even more dangerous (Iran).
Monty, I also believe that a lot of countries were profiteering in Iraq pre-invasion which is personally why I don't believe the whole "war for oil" nonsense. It's MUCH easier to just bribe the country into selling it to you and bargain with use of sanctions, very much like the previous arrangement. As for Koffi Anan, he shouldn't be let off the leash that easily because he WAS the Secretary General of the United Nations. Then again, you could probably make a good argument about Dick Cheney and Haliburton as well.
But Koffi Anan was never that competent. He let the Rwandan massacre happen, put the peacekeepers there under outrageously impossible rule of engagement... one wonders just HOW this guy managed to get to the top of the UN's ladder. Same goes for Ban Ki-moon. The guy is practically a non factor.
Either way, the UN had already lost its credibility before... then the US went on to lose its own credibilty later.
By the way, isn't this thread mistitled? Should be more like Bush's farewell present from an Iraqi reporter.
 
Panama, Haiti, Japan, The Philippines, Guam, Saipan, Puerto Rico, South Vietnam ... these places don't have much for oil.
 
Why do I suspect a new round of security measures coming up, shoes will be banned from government buildings or something equally ridiculous.
 
I really don't know what it is the South Korean public want. Really I just think the North Koreans and the Communists have gained control of them and have only the aim of subverting the current administration. Other than that, nothing else really makes any sense.
They really ought to do more than just throw shoes or something. They really should take it too far. I want them to take it too far. Then we can f*ck them up.
 
Hmmm apparently Somalia is supposed to have oil on its coast but I don't think that was the issue. There have been PLENTY of interventions where the country in question didn't have a whole lot going in terms of natural resource.
 
the_13th_redneck said:
Panama, Haiti, Japan, The Philippines, Guam, Saipan, Puerto Rico, South Vietnam ... these places don't have much for oil.
Click to expand...
First, third, fouth, fifth, and sixth are a crucial shipping port. The second one is a close neighbor. South Vietnam was about stopping communism's advance, as it was thought at the time that all communists worked together (not true). Japan attacked us directly first.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top