Best form of martial arts - Page 2




View Poll Results :What is the best form of martial arts
Wushu-KungFu 4 16.00%
Judo 0 0%
Aikido 0 0%
Jujitsu 4 16.00%
Karate 3 12.00%
Tae Kwon Do 4 16.00%
Kendo 0 0%
Dojo 0 0%
Mixed Martial Arts 8 32.00%
Jeet Kune Do 2 8.00%
Western Boxing 0 0%
Voters: 25. You may not vote on this poll

 
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Best form of martial arts
 
May 31st, 2006  
EagleZtrike
 
 
Best form of martial arts
Quote:
Originally Posted by bulldogg
Where the hell is Wing-Chun???
Wing Chung is part of Wushu
Yeah and ted you gotta train with authentic Chinese instructors to get the full of value of the martial art.
Same as needing to train with Japanese instructor for Karate to get the best.
May 31st, 2006  
MightyMacbeth
 
 
kung fu 8)
June 1st, 2006  
FutureDevilDog
 
 
Forget about the "art". If you're going to get into a fight where your life is on the line, the last thing you need to know is how to do your kung fu forms and all that crap. Trust me, I used to take kung-fu and felt even more vulnerable because my mind was filled with useless crap that would get me killed. If you want to learn an effective fighting style, check out Brazilian Jujutsu, Judo, Mauy Thai, Kickboxing, or just regular boxing.

To further prove my point,

Right there Royce Gracie (whose only lost one fight in MMA) fights the undefeated Jason Delucia. (Grappler vs A stand up fighter) This video (and several others, if you want more I can post 'em) shows that you need a strong background in groundfighting because statistics show that 9/10 fights end up on the ground.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...cie+vs+kung+fu



And below there is a video of Royce making Akebono, a sumo wrestler sized man submit via arm bar

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...654428&q=royce
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Best form of martial arts
June 1st, 2006  
Wing Nut
 
long post...

Hey Guys sorry for being away for so long, lifes

been getting in the way..

Quote:
Ted Wrote:

Wing Chung is a Chinese martial art,

developed by a women. Like aikido it uses the energy

of others and uses arm and legg techniques and also

grabbing and ground fighting. I tried it but wasn't

content with some of it, especially their way of

striking and their "chain strike technique" Sure you

hit your opponent, but it is like a small calibre

bullet. Better less often but with more power!

Something that is worth looking into is Krav Maga.

This is the hand to hand combat taught to the

Israeli DF. It is to the point, very powerful and

vicisiouly effective against armed and unarmed

opponents.

My favorite is off course Shin Kyokushin Karate.

This is the knock out variant of karate. It is

disciplined, tough, demanding and loads of fun. The

adrenaline is enormous when you are unleash into the

ring! It truly is my sport!
If we are going to talk about Wing Chun, we have to

understand that in the western world the wing chun

we see is the hong kong strain of wing chun which

came through Yip Man.

In Mainland China there is also wing chun from

Guangzhou (where I live) and Foshan (which is just

down the road) Hong Kong Wing Chun orignially came

from Foshan wing chun and Changed when it was in HK

to become what you see today, which is for the most

part, as Ted unfortunatly described. Foshan Wing

Chun is not all that different. In Guangzhou though,

although visually to an outsider it looks the same,

like a M16 and a AR15 would to a non military

person. It is a very different animal and packs a

lot more of a punch than HK wing chun which seems to

favour the defencive (rather than the agressive that

we have) avoidance and using of power like akido and

bujinkan. Why HK Wing Chun changed the way it did,

I don't know and it's a flame war best left to the

multiple arm chair sifu forums on the internet.

As Far as Martial arts go wing chun is (or at least it should be) very scientific in it's approach to fighting.


With the Chain punching... I know that (for some strange reason unbeknown to me) it seems to be a major technique in a lot of wing chun schools, it is actually a very basic technique. The idea is through punching along a straight line down the centre you are going to hit the opponent more times than he will hit you punching through an arc (as in a hook) although the hook is more powerful.. If I connect with you face as you are throwing the hook it should dissipate some if not most of the power in your hook. Chain punching should not be tippy tappy though..) If done properly the punch can obstruct the incoming punch meaning that your punch lands and theirs doesn't. But again this is just a very basic technique that like any other technique can be over come if you know how. - Think putting a chopstic in a rotary fan to stop it, or a stick through the spokes of a push bike.


**************
Quote:
Bulldogg Wrote:

I personally prefer Tuite JuiJitsu. I learned it from the hand to hand instructor for the Indianapolis SWAT team about 10 years ago... good stuff. Putting my mass on your body and inflicting major amounts of pain with minimal effort. Lifting you off the ground by the boys is far more effective than anyone's jumping-half-turn-flying-spinning-backfist of fury.
jujitsu is a good art. My father done it for years and was a very good fighter. Martial arts come in various shapes and forms now, Most are for display/entertainment, some are for health, some are for sports/competition, and some, are for scrapping.

*******
Quote:
ted wrote
Ah.. so we can talk about this topic Bulldogg, since you know how it feels. How do you explain to someone, who never fought, the effect of cracking shins together. Your lowkick on his shin and you see his pain. This instantly makes yours go away..... What a beautiful sport. And you might be right about the wussies where I trained Wing Chung hahahaha!
Most Chinese martial arts if they are training in a more traditional way (i.e for some form of combat rather than althetic performance) should cover conditioning for the bones.. This you can ask Bulldogg he has experienced it first hand BD is a big guy... he hit arms with my teacher.. maybe three or four times... and.. well I'll let him tell you.. Unfortunatly most of this kind of training you will not see in the west as it would be considered a form of physical abuse...

***************

Quote:
moving target wrote

Fighting, to me, is a survival technique rather than a sport. It something I'd much rather watch than participate in. That said, I've seen many different styles in a variety of environments in the US from UFC-style competitions to local "tough man" competitions to street fights and bar brawls. From my observation, someone who relies completely on Asian-style martial arts will usually fall victim to a brawler who can get in close (where flashy kicks aren't effective) and rip his opponent apart like bulldogg so adroitly described. Granted I've never seen any of the world masters fight, but how good could a system be if it's students can be overcome by a guy who learned to fight in tavern parking lots?
You are not far from the point. But this I think comes down more to training than anything else. Unfortunatly most asian martial arts have taken the route of performing forms/kata's/dances of martial arts moves for training. This is fine and dandy for some fitnesss training and improving co-ordination. Unfortunatly it will get your ass handed to you by the most common of brawlers out there. I fyou want to fight you have to fight. Just becuase I can pose with a gun, doesn't mean that I can shoot it. This is why something I have taken from the military and put into our training I think is very important.

I saw this in a program about the british Para's training. They called it milling. Basically they have 1 minute to get as much blood and snot out of the other persons nose as they can. Fighting as in fighting for your life depends a lot on your intent. This training does a number of things that are not benificial but I feel essential to anyone who wants to use martial arts to fight.

1) it gets you used to being hit - if you're not used to being hit.. in a fight you're "game plan" will turn to rats poo the moment you get clocked.

2) teaches controlled agression.

3) teaches determination to keep going even though you have run out of energy and power and are getting smacked about - in a real fight you cannot give up the ghost.

Technically even as a martial artist I do not think martial arts is actually necessary to win a fight. take the three things that I just mentioned and you should be able to beat most people as long as you want it more than they do.... Then what is the purpose of martial arts? I think... they can teach us technically more sound ways and more effective ways of hurting people and defending ourselves. But when we fight, we work instintively. which means, if you seriously want to do a martial art... any martial art... you have to understand that you have to work damn hard as what you are doing is, unprogramming your natural responces, and re-programing in new ones. You want to make the move (each and every move preferably) so natural that it comes out without thinking.. That takes a lot of time.. and a hell of a lot of effort. This is another reason why most martial artists get their arses handed to them by brawlers.. they have done the deprogramming (not that hard to do) but with once weekly training, they are un able to program in the new stuff. Serious martial arts training is a daily thing...

********

Quote:
eagleztrike wrote:

Wing Chung is part of Wushu
Yeah and ted you gotta train with authentic Chinese instructors to get the full of value of the martial art.
Same as needing to train with Japanese instructor for Karate to get the best.
This is unfortunatly where semantics comes in..

Now, Wushu is the Chinese blanked term for any form or martial arts... But.. it actually means the martial arts that were standardised by the Chinese Government in the 1970's.. That means Mostly the stuff from the shaolin temple, a bunch of modernised for performance purpose forms and San da (chinese kick boxing) for fighting.

Wing Chun not being a Shaolin art was never brought into this equasion (wushu being created in the north of China and Wing Chun being from the south) Also wing chun has never been learned by a mass student body in China.. through the beggining of communism to the 1980's wing chun was banned becuase of it's ability to counter the military and polices martial arts. BU teacher, his teacher and another one of his teachers have been arrested at one time for practicing the art. My teacher who was a military man didn't have to take the standardised hand to hand combat training becuase of his previous training. It was only since Wing CHun hit HK and got marketed to the west that it has had a big student body.

I dunno about training with Authentic Chinese/Japanese instructors to get a good deal. from what I have seen out here... a lot of chinese people, and undoubtably Japanese people are just at lazy and unwillng to put in the necessary effort to get good as us foreigners. If you want good training you need to find someone who has trainined damn hard over a decent period of time and has experience of using it.

Kung fu on the other hand (which a lot of martial artists like to use to differenciate from the Term Wushu which is associated with the acrobatic, performance forms only training martial arts from CHina really just means hard effort applied over a long time.. anyone who is skilled in something has kung fu.. A good cook, a skilled driver. an expert marksmen all have goood kung fu..

*******
June 1st, 2006  
Wing Nut
 
sorry about double posting.. my post was too long to fit into one reply
Quote:
future devil Dog wrote:

Forget about the "art". If you're going to get into a fight where your life is on the line, the last thing you need to know is how to do your kung fu forms and all that crap. Trust me, I used to take kung-fu and felt even more vulnerable because my mind was filled with useless crap that would get me killed. If you want to learn an effective fighting style, check out Brazilian Jujutsu, Judo, Mauy Thai, Kickboxing, or just regular boxing.
I understand your point. When I was living in England and training Kung fu I felt the same way.. This is more becuase of the wrong focus in martial arts training.. Espcially as a lot of kung fu has taken the route of the hippy dippy, make peace not war, fluffy bunny, spiritual enlightenment, finding the self, mystical, qi shooting, bullcrap that it has become. Too many movies, too many wonderful stories, and too much miss understanding has destroyed kung fu..

The reason why a lot of Arts like Muai thai, kickboxing etc.. can beat most kung fu guys is becuase they simply take a few techniques. 4 punches, 4 kicks, 3 elbows 3 knees and train the living crap outta them daily and fight regularly with them. I would be stupid to think that doing some flowery routine once a week for half an hour would mean I could compete with these guys... it's not the art, it's how you train. I have fought in a competition against the Guangzhou police san da (chinese kickboxing ) team and won.. not becuase my art is better, but becuase I trained it correctly. I have another international competition in August where I will have to fight a number of times over 2 days. I alter my training as such to meet the requirements. I don't stop training my art. but I take what I can use in the competition (there are rules in competitions and you are limited to certian attacking ways.) and train it. do extra carido work etc.. If I continued to practice forms (which like all asian martial arts we do have, although only 3, and we don't really train them much) of course I am gonna get my face smashed in. Again I would be stupid if I thought otherwise... Too many people live in a fantasy land with most martial arts. Especially Chinese Kung Fu..

Brazilian Ju Jitsu done a very good thing. It pointed out that most martial arts had been ignoring an area.. and becuase of that... most people got their arse kicked when it first came into the picture. now even the gracies are bringing striking into their game as like anything, people watch people learn and people adapt. Any martial art you do should cover Striking, kicking, locking, and throwing. Learning to fight on the ground is something that needs to be addressed. As you cannot garantee that you will fight just standing up... but you cannot garantee that you will fight on the ground either.. Don't choose one over the other..

Statistics are a wonderful thing.. but a waste of time.. 9/10 fights go to ground... maybe.. out of every fight I have had. I have never gone to ground. ([ot luck a guess.. but still true none the less) I feel it is more important to learn to get out of ground fighting and to get back up on your feet quite simply becuase in bar fights I've seen and been involved in when I was in the UK.. once someone hits the deck... The other guy tends to have a game of foot ball with the first guys head (sometimes with his mates..) rather then jump on him... Of course... It might (and from the video's of street fights I've seen from the US - gotta love the net) be a different story. Even though I have luckily never been in a fight that has gone to ground (I stand corrected, while learning Judo... we did go to ground. but then again no one was punching or kicking)

If we are serious about training a martial art to be able to fight with it.. we need to know our game (ever martial art has it's main focus, same as everybody has their specific way to fight. I big strong guy and a small skinny guy are not gonna fight the same.. although both have the potential to be a good fighter and able to beat the other). But we should also learn to use our "art" outside of a comfort zone. As I said most arts do cover all types of fighting although they focus on one.

i.e. I do wing chun, wing chun mainly focuses on striking.. although is has throwing, locking and from what I have found out through scrapping with my teacher is it can fight on the ground too.. although at the moment I am not sure how.. I feel it is very important for me to wrestle using the throwing/wrestling techniques of my art with a wrestler.. ground fighting with a ground fighter.. locking and submissions with a submission fighter. Of course I will be at a huge disadvantage.. most martial artists say things like.. never box a boxer etc.. don't play other peoples games.. In a fight I would agree to a degree.. but if you really want to know your art inside out.. you've gotta get out of your comfort zone.. sometimes limiting yourself makes you look at what you are doing and brings up things that you might not have thought about if you stay doing what you are good at...

In a fight we cannot always control our environment.

Bulldogg and I have already talked on many occasions abotu finding some time to compare our two respective ways of fighting.. I will happily admit that with bulldogg being twice the size and twice the weight of me, with almost twice the reach and probably twice the stregnth.. means I will be at a serious disadvantage.. but if I stay in my comfy gym in my safe little bubble.. I will always be disillusioned as to what I can and can't do.. But from an experience like that I can learn soooo many things.. such as how someone my size could effetively deal with someone his size if need be.. How I can use my art to deal with someone pinning me to the floor, how I can act/react to having a joint turned in a way it shouldn't be turned... Without trying I would never know... If I don't know.. how can I expect to use.. Most martial arts make the mistake of training against their own art and nothing else...


Is the end it will never boil down to which martial art is better, but who had trained harder and has the more experience (both are needed) more stregnth and more skill are factors that will help

Wing Nut
June 1st, 2006  
Ted
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wing Nut
Is the end it will never boil down to which martial art is better, but who had trained harder and has the more experience (both are needed) more stregnth and more skill are factors that will help
I read your post with interest and especially this last point is so very true. I train on rare occasion with Japanese instructors and it is beautiful to see how they incorporate the sport as a way of life. I am thirty-five and finally up to understanding the deeper meaning of martial arts.
June 1st, 2006  
EagleZtrike
 
 
9/10 for that essay
That was really long.
Chinese KungFu should be really effective if trained properly. It is not as easily a fighting method due to it's "flowing style" and also wide range or training with balance, jumps, punches, kicks, and various weapons..

The crazy pure fighting ones like Mui Thai were made solely for in the ring Fighting/Grappling.

But one question here. Do you think if Jujitsu fighter tried to get a Wushu fighter on the ground, would the Wushu fighter be able to dodge it? Jujitsu is all about getting the other person off balance while Wushu is a stand up, jumping, balanced fighting stance.

BTW Future devil dog, that movie was really wierd lol, basically squirming on the ground fighting. Well once their both on the ground, both can't do much in reality. As seen in that video you provided they were giving each other little taps :P
June 1st, 2006  
Missileer
 
 
Tae Kwon Do
Since that is all I have experience in when I was young. I made it to brown belt and decided that it hurt too much.
June 1st, 2006  
tomtom22
 
 
Tae Kwon Do
June 2nd, 2006  
Rob Henderson
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleZtrike
9/10 for that essay
That was really long.
Chinese KungFu should be really effective if trained properly. It is not as easily a fighting method due to it's "flowing style" and also wide range or training with balance, jumps, punches, kicks, and various weapons..

The crazy pure fighting ones like Mui Thai were made solely for in the ring Fighting/Grappling.

But one question here. Do you think if Jujitsu fighter tried to get a Wushu fighter on the ground, would the Wushu fighter be able to dodge it? Jujitsu is all about getting the other person off balance while Wushu is a stand up, jumping, balanced fighting stance.

BTW Future devil dog, that movie was really wierd lol, basically squirming on the ground fighting. Well once their both on the ground, both can't do much in reality. As seen in that video you provided they were giving each other little taps :P
If the Juijitzu fighter was able to get the Wushu fighter on the ground, then it would be over. But he would have to work on getting him on the ground.
 


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