Action on Zimbabwe
mmarsh
Active member
And Afghanistan...?
Slightly different situation. NATO is in Afghanistan because they invoked the Article 5 clause of the treaty after 9-11. An attack on one member is an attack on all.
BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
As it happens, Zimbabwe have a lot of natural resources such as coal,chromium ore, asbestos, gold, nickel, copper, iron ore, vanadium, lithium, tin, platinum group metals and diamonds. Zimbabwe like the rest of Africa is the richest continent in the world regarding natural resources, yet its people starve.
Mugabe like the majority of African leaders is a despotic tyrant, who's only regard is his own enrichment. Zimbabwe was the breadbasket of Africa, now its a basket case. Mugabe, if my memory is correct is the 7th richest man in the world, and is determined to hang onto power at any price, that price paid for by the ordinary people. The power sharing deal between Mugabe's thugs and the MDC is fast approaching meltdown, because of Mugabe's lust for power and fully supported by his military elite. The only way forward for Zimbabwe (in my opinion), is for Mugabe to be ousted from power. Not so simple as the Zimbabwean people are unarmed, while the government troops are armed to the teeth and who are very brave when faced with unarmed people. The majority of the so called “war veterans” are youths who were too young during the so called struggle in the 1980's, they are merely thugs employed by Mugabe to enforce his terror tactics aided and supported by the police.
It has often been said that British troops should go in and oust the Mugabe regime. If Britain does invade, Mugabe is going to scream from the roof tops, “COLONIALISM, BRITIAN IS MAKING WAR AGAINST THE POOR PEOPLE OF ZIMBABWE AND WANT TO RE-ESTABLISH COLONIAL RULE!”
Something has got to give, sooner rather then later.
senojekips
Active member
I admire your optimism, however, I'm not holding my breath. I can't see anything good happening in Zimbabwe in the foreseeable future.
It's sad, but no one is really interested. So long as the native African's have control, the country will be an economic basket case. The only time they can pull together is when they have a common enemy (the Whites) once in control they just squabble among themselves.
Racist,?? Possibly.
Truthful,?? You're damn right I am.
It's sad, but no one is really interested. So long as the native African's have control, the country will be an economic basket case. The only time they can pull together is when they have a common enemy (the Whites) once in control they just squabble among themselves.
Racist,?? Possibly.
Truthful,?? You're damn right I am.
BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
Quite the reverse, I'm not optimistic about Zimbabwe at all, and I agree with you totally that there will not be anything good happening anytime soon. Tensions are mounting, I'm just wondering how much longer before the situation explodes. Mugabe wanted independence, he got it, now that he has stuffed the country totally he blames everyone (mainly UK) except himself and his greed.
Only God or a bullet can save ZImbabwe.
senojekips
Active member
My apologies, I misunderstood you.
Well, I can safely say that God won't help, and I'll bet good money on that. Like with Saddam, a Hellfire enema some years ago would have solved a lot of problems.
It may seem brutal, but my solution would be to let them run their own country, but the instant they're leader stepped out of line,... deliverance would strike from above. They'd soon get the message, and it would save thousands of lives and billions, perhaps trillions of Dollars.
Modern day Gunboat diplomacy if you will.
Well, I can safely say that God won't help, and I'll bet good money on that. Like with Saddam, a Hellfire enema some years ago would have solved a lot of problems.
It may seem brutal, but my solution would be to let them run their own country, but the instant they're leader stepped out of line,... deliverance would strike from above. They'd soon get the message, and it would save thousands of lives and billions, perhaps trillions of Dollars.
Modern day Gunboat diplomacy if you will.
BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
Two seperate visitors to South Africa gave two solutions for saving Africa.
(1)HIV AIDS
(2)Recolonisation
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
Gunboat diplomacy kicks ass. Tolerate the dictators as long as they're not pissing us off.
senojekips
Active member
As you are all no doubt aware, Political Correctness is not my cup of tea.
Never the less, it is true that colonisation was the best thing that ever happened to some countries. The native people were exploited far less by the colonisers and lived far more peaceful lives, than they ever did under their own rulers, before or since colonisation.
The truth is that the colonisers treated the native people far better than their own kind treated them.
BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
There is a very true saying, "No one treats a black worse, then another black!" I've seen it with my own eyes.
There were reports of Ian Smith appearing in public, carried shoulder high by black Zimbabweans pleading with him to take power back from Mugabe.
As an aside, a family friend was flying back to UK from Zimbabwe a few years ago, boarded the Air Zimbabwe aeroplane and then minutes later ordered to leave the aircraft. Mugabe's wife decided to go on a shopping trip to London had the passengers thrown off so she could have the aircraft to herself.
If you want an interesting read, Google Grace Mugabe.
To answer the original question, How difficult would it be to overthrow Mugabe? Not very. Mugabe's military is 3rd rate at best, some have reckoned that a battalion of British troops could take the country within 48 hours.
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A Can of Man
Je suis aware
Believe it or not, this is true.
People think being nice to one another is a universal moral. It is not. People fail to realize that most things we believe to be right or wrong are not simply born out of evolution but were in fact invented by either someone or a group of people.
Many cultures did not have words for freedom or individuality etc. They have been invented later on when adopted by foreign influences.
Something people fail to understand.
Good values are NOT universal.
Some of your comments are quite shocking...
And there is also a lot of racism in it...
First things first. Black or white, the problem isnt here. We are equal. Live with it. The only difference between black and white people here is that black people suffered from racism for centuries. If they are in this state today, it's because of a lot of unsolved problems...
If they cant make a working democracy, there is reasons behind it... It's not because the black people dont have the democracy gene... It's because they had a lot of problems.
And one of these problems is the colonialism. Colonialism destroys an important dynamic of social evolution... The local structure building is completely destroyed by colonialism. This is why there is chaos in these countries.
It's because a white man came there and destroyed their structure to give a corrupt version of his... To serve his interests. And when he was gone... he didnt give them back what he took for them, he just left.... And he leaves behind a destroyed old system + a corrupt foreign system.
So while he is advancing, they have to get rid of the new system or get rid of the old system and take back the years they lost while they were enslaved... this why they are still behind...
In the USA, they tried to kill all the smart slaves... In Africa, the colonial regimes did the same. They killed the scholars and destroyed any form of resistance without any care for the prejudice done...
So a little mercy for the victims of these crimes is the least you can do.
And we all love these dictators... When you have a normal government in an rich African country, the people live correctly, they get educated... They have a good health etc etc... They provide to their own needs and dont buy a lot of our TVs and Ipods...
But when you have corrupt government, you have an elite buying expensive cars in our countries and spending their money in our economy... And who cares about the rest of the country? since when we care about black people suffering? God made them to suffer right?
so please, cut this hypocrisy... We rule the world, we want dictator, there is dictators. We dont want equality, there is slavery around! end of story!
thanks for reading.
And there is also a lot of racism in it...
First things first. Black or white, the problem isnt here. We are equal. Live with it. The only difference between black and white people here is that black people suffered from racism for centuries. If they are in this state today, it's because of a lot of unsolved problems...
If they cant make a working democracy, there is reasons behind it... It's not because the black people dont have the democracy gene... It's because they had a lot of problems.
And one of these problems is the colonialism. Colonialism destroys an important dynamic of social evolution... The local structure building is completely destroyed by colonialism. This is why there is chaos in these countries.
It's because a white man came there and destroyed their structure to give a corrupt version of his... To serve his interests. And when he was gone... he didnt give them back what he took for them, he just left.... And he leaves behind a destroyed old system + a corrupt foreign system.
So while he is advancing, they have to get rid of the new system or get rid of the old system and take back the years they lost while they were enslaved... this why they are still behind...
In the USA, they tried to kill all the smart slaves... In Africa, the colonial regimes did the same. They killed the scholars and destroyed any form of resistance without any care for the prejudice done...
So a little mercy for the victims of these crimes is the least you can do.
And we all love these dictators... When you have a normal government in an rich African country, the people live correctly, they get educated... They have a good health etc etc... They provide to their own needs and dont buy a lot of our TVs and Ipods...
But when you have corrupt government, you have an elite buying expensive cars in our countries and spending their money in our economy... And who cares about the rest of the country? since when we care about black people suffering? God made them to suffer right?
so please, cut this hypocrisy... We rule the world, we want dictator, there is dictators. We dont want equality, there is slavery around! end of story!
thanks for reading.
BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
Quite frankly LeMask, you don't know what your talking about. With all due respect, unless you live or have lived in Africa you won't have a clue about African politics or culture.
For a start, what you and I understand about democracy is totally alien to black Africans, their rule of law and democracy is tribalism, in other words they are told to do, what to think by tribal leaders. Its not racism, its fact. The ANC before the 1994 elections told their followers “Freedom before education.” What they didn't understand and many still don't, Education IS Freedom, and simply followed their leaders blindly without objective thinking.
LeMask The local structure building is completely destroyed by colonialism.
What local structure building? Until the so called evil colonisers arrived they had no medical infrastructure (unless you mean sengormas or witch doctors), no formal education, no roads that didn't turn to a muddy cesspit when it rained, no fresh water supply, no sanitation whatsoever, tribal infighting was rife, no transport system whatsoever, what law and order there was, was at the point of a spear, starvation and disease was rampant. I could go on and on for hours about this. When the whites left power, the black African leaders were left with a strong economy, a strong export base, schools, hospitals, power generation, railway system, in fact everything that a western country would have. Thats fact. It also fact most blacks embraced western culture and still do.
Now lets turn to Zimbabwe. Before Mugabe took over the white owned farms, the country was producing enormous amounts of food, so much so, Zimbabwe was the bread basket of Africa, now its a basket case. Now Mugabe has taken over those farms for the black people, when in fact the farms went to his buddies, the elite. The very few farms which were taken over by the black Zimbabweans are producing not a damn thing, nothing, zilch, zero. Inflation is the highest the word has ever seen. Its got so bad in Zimbabwe that blacks are pouring across the border into South Africa, causing even more problems here. Zimbabwe is a country of billionaires, starving billionaires.
LeMask. And we all love these dictators... When you have a normal government in an rich African country, the people live correctly, they get educated... They have a good health etc etc... They provide to their own needs and don't buy a lot of our TVs and I pods.
Define normal show me a normal government in Africa? Who educates them, who looks after their health? They cant wait to get their hands on TV's and i pods and cars and and and. The vast majority of black governments are so corrupt its unbelievable. Mugabe is skimming billions from the country, he's the 7th richest man in the world while his people stave. Where did he get his wealth? Zimbabwe was a wondrous and beautiful country, wildlife and scenery beyond many peoples dreams, I know, I've seen it. Since Mugabe has gone off his rocker, tourism is non existent, his people are starving, he will NEVER share power with anyone, to him democracy is “Do as I say.” Mugabe has been in power for over 20 years, he has totally destroyed what had been built under Ian Smith and others. When Ian Smith was seen in public the blacks would lift him on their shoulders begging him to take over power again.
Mugabe's wife Grace had an habit of throwing people off an international flight to London so she could go on a shopping trip in London. She even had seats removed from the aeroplane to accommodate her shopping
Mugabe has destroyed a beautiful country and blames everyone except himself.
What I say isn't hearsay or third hand information, I live here, I see it every day.
For a start, what you and I understand about democracy is totally alien to black Africans, their rule of law and democracy is tribalism, in other words they are told to do, what to think by tribal leaders. Its not racism, its fact. The ANC before the 1994 elections told their followers “Freedom before education.” What they didn't understand and many still don't, Education IS Freedom, and simply followed their leaders blindly without objective thinking.
LeMask The local structure building is completely destroyed by colonialism.
What local structure building? Until the so called evil colonisers arrived they had no medical infrastructure (unless you mean sengormas or witch doctors), no formal education, no roads that didn't turn to a muddy cesspit when it rained, no fresh water supply, no sanitation whatsoever, tribal infighting was rife, no transport system whatsoever, what law and order there was, was at the point of a spear, starvation and disease was rampant. I could go on and on for hours about this. When the whites left power, the black African leaders were left with a strong economy, a strong export base, schools, hospitals, power generation, railway system, in fact everything that a western country would have. Thats fact. It also fact most blacks embraced western culture and still do.
Now lets turn to Zimbabwe. Before Mugabe took over the white owned farms, the country was producing enormous amounts of food, so much so, Zimbabwe was the bread basket of Africa, now its a basket case. Now Mugabe has taken over those farms for the black people, when in fact the farms went to his buddies, the elite. The very few farms which were taken over by the black Zimbabweans are producing not a damn thing, nothing, zilch, zero. Inflation is the highest the word has ever seen. Its got so bad in Zimbabwe that blacks are pouring across the border into South Africa, causing even more problems here. Zimbabwe is a country of billionaires, starving billionaires.
LeMask. And we all love these dictators... When you have a normal government in an rich African country, the people live correctly, they get educated... They have a good health etc etc... They provide to their own needs and don't buy a lot of our TVs and I pods.
Define normal show me a normal government in Africa? Who educates them, who looks after their health? They cant wait to get their hands on TV's and i pods and cars and and and. The vast majority of black governments are so corrupt its unbelievable. Mugabe is skimming billions from the country, he's the 7th richest man in the world while his people stave. Where did he get his wealth? Zimbabwe was a wondrous and beautiful country, wildlife and scenery beyond many peoples dreams, I know, I've seen it. Since Mugabe has gone off his rocker, tourism is non existent, his people are starving, he will NEVER share power with anyone, to him democracy is “Do as I say.” Mugabe has been in power for over 20 years, he has totally destroyed what had been built under Ian Smith and others. When Ian Smith was seen in public the blacks would lift him on their shoulders begging him to take over power again.
Mugabe's wife Grace had an habit of throwing people off an international flight to London so she could go on a shopping trip in London. She even had seats removed from the aeroplane to accommodate her shopping
Mugabe has destroyed a beautiful country and blames everyone except himself.
What I say isn't hearsay or third hand information, I live here, I see it every day.
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You know britinafrica, I fully agree with you. They dont know anything about democracy... it's not theirs. Most of them dont understand it. They can understand some words like "equality" or "power to the people"... But they dont have the clear idea of "democracy" in their minds. But why? because it's a system that was forced into them and it was never achieved for many reasons... And one of these reasons is that we have benefits in instability in these third world countries.
and please, dont tell me that there was nothing in Africa before the white man came there. It's the propaganda we have been fed up for years...
It's false, Africa hosted a lot of huge civilizations. The first country to recognize the independance of the USA is what we call today Morroco.
It's true, that at the colonial era, there was huge problems in these countries, weak or no states etc etc...
And we have to add that at that time, the Western countries were in a golden era, industrial revolution and such...
But please, dont tell me that we went there to help them. You are giving me the same speech we heard over and over again...
European countries had an industrial revolution, a lot of hardware and for cheap. We took these countries for ressources and to open new markets. We used and abused the labor force there. We attacked them without mercy using advanced weapons against them. They had some benefits from, like you said, schools and hospitals, and but they didnt recover from it until these days... so dont tell me it was a good deal... I have doubts even on the intents...
And there is good exemples, like Mali. Okay, they have some trouble, but it's maybe the only democracy in Africa.
And it's always the same. They are poor and without education... I know what you are talking about, you see them living in houses made of scrap metal, and you see the satellite dishes on top... They buy TVs before having clean water at home.
But it's not what I meant... What I mean, is that we favor these dictatorships and their elite... because when they are rich, they dont use local products, they import them... so the money comes out of the country.
When you are an average citizen, you put your money in the local bank... You spend your money in the local market.
But when you are rich, you open a bank account in Switzerland, you buy a ferrari made in Italy and you buy your perfume in Paris...
And Mugabe is a criminal, no need to try to convince me it's the case. But we are responsible of that. We made such dictators...
He is not alone... The leading family in Tunisia is an exemple too. And we can add people like Saddam or the Shah of Iran to the list... or the former president in Venezuela...
We have to put a stop to these people who profit from corruption.
and please, dont tell me that there was nothing in Africa before the white man came there. It's the propaganda we have been fed up for years...
It's false, Africa hosted a lot of huge civilizations. The first country to recognize the independance of the USA is what we call today Morroco.
It's true, that at the colonial era, there was huge problems in these countries, weak or no states etc etc...
And we have to add that at that time, the Western countries were in a golden era, industrial revolution and such...
But please, dont tell me that we went there to help them. You are giving me the same speech we heard over and over again...
European countries had an industrial revolution, a lot of hardware and for cheap. We took these countries for ressources and to open new markets. We used and abused the labor force there. We attacked them without mercy using advanced weapons against them. They had some benefits from, like you said, schools and hospitals, and but they didnt recover from it until these days... so dont tell me it was a good deal... I have doubts even on the intents...
And there is good exemples, like Mali. Okay, they have some trouble, but it's maybe the only democracy in Africa.
And it's always the same. They are poor and without education... I know what you are talking about, you see them living in houses made of scrap metal, and you see the satellite dishes on top... They buy TVs before having clean water at home.
But it's not what I meant... What I mean, is that we favor these dictatorships and their elite... because when they are rich, they dont use local products, they import them... so the money comes out of the country.
When you are an average citizen, you put your money in the local bank... You spend your money in the local market.
But when you are rich, you open a bank account in Switzerland, you buy a ferrari made in Italy and you buy your perfume in Paris...
And Mugabe is a criminal, no need to try to convince me it's the case. But we are responsible of that. We made such dictators...
He is not alone... The leading family in Tunisia is an exemple too. And we can add people like Saddam or the Shah of Iran to the list... or the former president in Venezuela...
We have to put a stop to these people who profit from corruption.
BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
First of all let me make one thing perfectly clear, I am not a racist, I look, listen and learn.
When I refer to Africa, I mean Sub Sahara Africa.
LeMask:-But they don't have the clear idea of "democracy" in their minds. But why? because it's a system that was forced into them and it was never achieved for many reasons
Who forced the idea of democracy onto them? It was their own people and leaders not the colonists.
LeMask:- and please, don't tell me that there was nothing in Africa before the white man came there.
Before colonisation the vast majority all Africa consisted of open bush. If one considers the Zimbabwe ruins, there is evidence that it was built by Arabs. The materials used to build was never used by tribal Africans.
LeMask:-It's false, Africa hosted a lot of huge civilizations. The first country to recognize the independance of the USA is what we call today Morroco.
My comments refer to sub Sahara Africa.
LeMask:-But please, don't tell me that we went there to help them. You are giving me the same speech we heard over and over again..
OK let me be quite clear about this. I agree colonists harvested the diamonds, gold, copper etc but with the full agreement of the local tribal chiefs. Blacks and their families living in the bush in the middle of nowhere made their way to those area's to earn money and for a better life. Such was the influx, schools, and medical clinics were in fact built by companies for the health and welfare of those black workers.
LeMask:-And there is good exemples, like Mali. Okay, they have some trouble, but it's maybe the only democracy in Africa.
The only real democracy in Africa as far as I am aware is Botswana, Namibia and South Africa are heading the way of Zimbabwe, well South Africa was heading that way until the recent split of the ANC. Even their supporters have now turned on the old ANC, realising at last that communism isn't the way forward. Zuma by the way is a dyed in the wool communist.
LeMask:-And it's always the same. They are poor and without education.
I agree, but who is really responsible, not the colonists but their own government. I remember millions of dollars was sent to South Africa from Europe to uplift street children, where did that money end up? The street children didnt see a cent of it, I can guess where it went.
LeMask:- you see them living in houses made of scrap metal, and you see the satellite dishes on top... They buy TVs before having clean water at home.
What you are referring to are the townships in South Africa, tins shacks and filthy dirty. I have done many trips up into Namibia and Botswana. I have seen hundreds of small villages, although built from reeds and other materials, the residents keep their homes and land around their homes clean and well swept. Completely the reverse of South Africa.
LeMask:- And Mugabe is a criminal, no need to try to convince me it's the case. But we are responsible of that. We made such dictators...
We aren't responsible for turning Mugabe into a thieving, murderous rat bag. He did that all by himself. Now his country is in such a mess because of his policies, he wants to blame everyone except himself.
There is a simple analogy of the African mindset.
If we grew a crop of maize, we would keep enough to plant for next years crop.
The black doesn't do that, he eats the lot and worries about next year when next year comes around.
Thats the fact of Africa
When I refer to Africa, I mean Sub Sahara Africa.
LeMask:-But they don't have the clear idea of "democracy" in their minds. But why? because it's a system that was forced into them and it was never achieved for many reasons
Who forced the idea of democracy onto them? It was their own people and leaders not the colonists.
LeMask:- and please, don't tell me that there was nothing in Africa before the white man came there.
Before colonisation the vast majority all Africa consisted of open bush. If one considers the Zimbabwe ruins, there is evidence that it was built by Arabs. The materials used to build was never used by tribal Africans.
LeMask:-It's false, Africa hosted a lot of huge civilizations. The first country to recognize the independance of the USA is what we call today Morroco.
My comments refer to sub Sahara Africa.
LeMask:-But please, don't tell me that we went there to help them. You are giving me the same speech we heard over and over again..
OK let me be quite clear about this. I agree colonists harvested the diamonds, gold, copper etc but with the full agreement of the local tribal chiefs. Blacks and their families living in the bush in the middle of nowhere made their way to those area's to earn money and for a better life. Such was the influx, schools, and medical clinics were in fact built by companies for the health and welfare of those black workers.
LeMask:-And there is good exemples, like Mali. Okay, they have some trouble, but it's maybe the only democracy in Africa.
The only real democracy in Africa as far as I am aware is Botswana, Namibia and South Africa are heading the way of Zimbabwe, well South Africa was heading that way until the recent split of the ANC. Even their supporters have now turned on the old ANC, realising at last that communism isn't the way forward. Zuma by the way is a dyed in the wool communist.
LeMask:-And it's always the same. They are poor and without education.
I agree, but who is really responsible, not the colonists but their own government. I remember millions of dollars was sent to South Africa from Europe to uplift street children, where did that money end up? The street children didnt see a cent of it, I can guess where it went.
LeMask:- you see them living in houses made of scrap metal, and you see the satellite dishes on top... They buy TVs before having clean water at home.
What you are referring to are the townships in South Africa, tins shacks and filthy dirty. I have done many trips up into Namibia and Botswana. I have seen hundreds of small villages, although built from reeds and other materials, the residents keep their homes and land around their homes clean and well swept. Completely the reverse of South Africa.
LeMask:- And Mugabe is a criminal, no need to try to convince me it's the case. But we are responsible of that. We made such dictators...
We aren't responsible for turning Mugabe into a thieving, murderous rat bag. He did that all by himself. Now his country is in such a mess because of his policies, he wants to blame everyone except himself.
There is a simple analogy of the African mindset.
If we grew a crop of maize, we would keep enough to plant for next years crop.
The black doesn't do that, he eats the lot and worries about next year when next year comes around.
Thats the fact of Africa
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
That's the fact of many places.
Many countries around the world used Western influence or colonization to their advantage. Singapore, Malaysia, Hong Kong... these countries and the one territory have done very well. Malaysia less so than the other two. So you simply cannot blame all the negatives on the Europeans.
Koreans managed to use colonization by the Japanese to their advantage. The Japanese were cruel beyond belief but Koreans managed to still learn how to run a modern country over decades after liberation.
Many countries around the world used Western influence or colonization to their advantage. Singapore, Malaysia, Hong Kong... these countries and the one territory have done very well. Malaysia less so than the other two. So you simply cannot blame all the negatives on the Europeans.
Koreans managed to use colonization by the Japanese to their advantage. The Japanese were cruel beyond belief but Koreans managed to still learn how to run a modern country over decades after liberation.
Britinafrica, I didnt call you a racist. I just love history and where I live, the debate about the colonization is still alive...
And I'm shocked to see people here talk about the benefits of colonization while they know that in that time, they used chemical weapons to exterminate riotting villages...
And I'm not an expert about Sub-Saharean Africa, but I dont think that it can be so different there... The people who colonized these countries were not so different from the people who colonized the Arab countries in the north.
Whatever, these people never had the chance to get democracy... I mean real democracy, not just lies on TV...
And their leaders were the puppets of the colonial empires.
Do you honestly think that an African king will give his people the right to chase him to replace him by a president?
of course not. But maybe that with time, through education... His people will riot and get rid of the king and replace him by a better ruler...
Or maybe that through education, this kingdom could turn into a monarchy like in Spain or the UK?
But it didnt work like that... One day, the colonial empires came there, and treated people like monkeys... they told them "this how civilized people live, you are savages, you cant think for yourselves, so let us do that for you"...
And then they killed anyone speaking up against them... and never took the time to ask people what they want...
How can you come after that and be surprised if the people there cant speak up and cant make their own system to rule their lives...
It's because we took down the people who do that there. It's because we did everything to turn them into slaves.
Why the Turkish people doesnt have this problem? because they were never under the ruling of a colonial empire. Their people is still proud and ready to defend the motherland...
And you must admit that we did a lot of damage in these countries...
If they were so bad... There would be no black man in Africa... They would have starved to death for centuries before the white man gets there...
And I'm shocked to see people here talk about the benefits of colonization while they know that in that time, they used chemical weapons to exterminate riotting villages...
And I'm not an expert about Sub-Saharean Africa, but I dont think that it can be so different there... The people who colonized these countries were not so different from the people who colonized the Arab countries in the north.
I'm confused. Do you talk about the present? or the Past? before the colonization or after? maybe inbetween?
Whatever, these people never had the chance to get democracy... I mean real democracy, not just lies on TV...
And their leaders were the puppets of the colonial empires.
Do you honestly think that an African king will give his people the right to chase him to replace him by a president?
of course not. But maybe that with time, through education... His people will riot and get rid of the king and replace him by a better ruler...
Or maybe that through education, this kingdom could turn into a monarchy like in Spain or the UK?
But it didnt work like that... One day, the colonial empires came there, and treated people like monkeys... they told them "this how civilized people live, you are savages, you cant think for yourselves, so let us do that for you"...
And then they killed anyone speaking up against them... and never took the time to ask people what they want...
How can you come after that and be surprised if the people there cant speak up and cant make their own system to rule their lives...
It's because we took down the people who do that there. It's because we did everything to turn them into slaves.
Why the Turkish people doesnt have this problem? because they were never under the ruling of a colonial empire. Their people is still proud and ready to defend the motherland...
And you must admit that we did a lot of damage in these countries...
If they were so bad... There would be no black man in Africa... They would have starved to death for centuries before the white man gets there...
BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
LeMask:-Britinafrica, I didnt call you a racist. I just love history and where I live, the debate about the colonization is still alive...
I'm not saying you called me a racist, I was just getting that point in before someone reading my post assumed I was.
LeMask:- I'm confused. Do you talk about the present? or the Past? before the colonization or after? maybe inbetween?
Whatever, these people never had the chance to get democracy... I mean real democracy, not just lies on TV... And their leaders were the puppets of the colonial empires.
I'm talking about the present. Before the so called democracy in Africa, it was tribal law. African leaders saw that democracy (in their form) was a way to get the west to give them massive funding. Funding that didnt go to whom it should have done. African leaders certainly weren't puppets of colonial empires, but were the ones who fought against colonialism, such as Mugabe who led the ZANU PF. As far as lies on TV, many African leaders couldn't tell the truth if their lives depended on it. One example, Mbeki said "Crime (in South Africa) is merely a perception." 55 murders, 150 rapes, 1500 robberies a day is perception?
LeMask:- Do you honestly think that an African king will give his people the right to chase him to replace him by a president?
Actually there are still Kings even when there is a state President, point in case is the Zulu King Goodwill Zwelithini.
LeMask:-Or maybe that through education, this kingdom could turn into a monarchy like in Spain or the UK?
The African kingdoms could never be like those in UK or Spain, the mind set is totally different.
LeMask:-But it didnt work like that... One day, the colonial empires came there, and treated people like monkeys... they told them "this how civilized people live, you are savages, you cant think for yourselves, so let us do that for you"... And then they killed anyone speaking up against them... and never took the time to ask people what they want...
Far from it, much of what Cecil Rhodes did (in what is now Zimbabwe) was achieved with the full cooperation and respect of the tribal chiefs and or king.
LeMark:-How can you come after that and be surprised if the people there cant speak up and cant make their own system to rule their lives...
As I said before, black Africans have the mindset of doing what their tribal chiefs told them and when to do it. It had nothing to do with colonialism.
LeMask:-It's because we took down the people who do that there. It's because we did everything to turn them into slaves.
Far from it, many black tribesmen took their families to where the work was to give their families a better standard of living.
LeMask:-And you must admit that we did a lot of damage in these countries...
If they were so bad... There would be no black man in Africa... They would have starved to death for centuries before the white man gets there...
Many of them did actually starve to death before the white man arrived in Africa. You need to understand the African tribal mentality, the elderly, sick or infirm were not always cared for by the community, they were in effect cast out and left to fend for themselves. Many African people in Zimbabwe are starving to death today, right this minute. Mugabe has tried to use foreign aid (food) as a bargaining chip. The man couldn't give a toss about his people, he's a megalomaniac only interesting in increasing his personal wealth.
As I mentioned before in a previous post, there is an old saying, “No one treats a black worse then another black.” Thats fact, I've seen it.
There is an amazing book called "Washing of Spears" by Donald Morris regarding the Zulu kingdom. Its well worth a read.
To get back to the original question, how hard would it be to get rid of Mugabe. Not very. There are US and British bases in Africa not that far from Zimbabwe, well within aircraft range.
I'm not saying you called me a racist, I was just getting that point in before someone reading my post assumed I was.
LeMask:- I'm confused. Do you talk about the present? or the Past? before the colonization or after? maybe inbetween?
Whatever, these people never had the chance to get democracy... I mean real democracy, not just lies on TV... And their leaders were the puppets of the colonial empires.
I'm talking about the present. Before the so called democracy in Africa, it was tribal law. African leaders saw that democracy (in their form) was a way to get the west to give them massive funding. Funding that didnt go to whom it should have done. African leaders certainly weren't puppets of colonial empires, but were the ones who fought against colonialism, such as Mugabe who led the ZANU PF. As far as lies on TV, many African leaders couldn't tell the truth if their lives depended on it. One example, Mbeki said "Crime (in South Africa) is merely a perception." 55 murders, 150 rapes, 1500 robberies a day is perception?
LeMask:- Do you honestly think that an African king will give his people the right to chase him to replace him by a president?
Actually there are still Kings even when there is a state President, point in case is the Zulu King Goodwill Zwelithini.
LeMask:-Or maybe that through education, this kingdom could turn into a monarchy like in Spain or the UK?
The African kingdoms could never be like those in UK or Spain, the mind set is totally different.
LeMask:-But it didnt work like that... One day, the colonial empires came there, and treated people like monkeys... they told them "this how civilized people live, you are savages, you cant think for yourselves, so let us do that for you"... And then they killed anyone speaking up against them... and never took the time to ask people what they want...
Far from it, much of what Cecil Rhodes did (in what is now Zimbabwe) was achieved with the full cooperation and respect of the tribal chiefs and or king.
LeMark:-How can you come after that and be surprised if the people there cant speak up and cant make their own system to rule their lives...
As I said before, black Africans have the mindset of doing what their tribal chiefs told them and when to do it. It had nothing to do with colonialism.
LeMask:-It's because we took down the people who do that there. It's because we did everything to turn them into slaves.
Far from it, many black tribesmen took their families to where the work was to give their families a better standard of living.
LeMask:-And you must admit that we did a lot of damage in these countries...
If they were so bad... There would be no black man in Africa... They would have starved to death for centuries before the white man gets there...
Many of them did actually starve to death before the white man arrived in Africa. You need to understand the African tribal mentality, the elderly, sick or infirm were not always cared for by the community, they were in effect cast out and left to fend for themselves. Many African people in Zimbabwe are starving to death today, right this minute. Mugabe has tried to use foreign aid (food) as a bargaining chip. The man couldn't give a toss about his people, he's a megalomaniac only interesting in increasing his personal wealth.
As I mentioned before in a previous post, there is an old saying, “No one treats a black worse then another black.” Thats fact, I've seen it.
There is an amazing book called "Washing of Spears" by Donald Morris regarding the Zulu kingdom. Its well worth a read.
To get back to the original question, how hard would it be to get rid of Mugabe. Not very. There are US and British bases in Africa not that far from Zimbabwe, well within aircraft range.
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