Originally Posted by mvilla2426

Guess what?? The laws of this country were based on theology (at least western religion)

Where do you think "No murder" and other such laws come from???

I don't want to go on a whole new topic here, but the laws of our country were based on the philosophy of "natural law" more then any religion. It is no problem to find pages upon pages of of quotes from many of our most prominant founding fathers on their ill view of mixing church and state. For that matter while the majority of our founding fathers had firm beliefs in God, a great number of the ones at the constitutional convention were Deists and Unitarians. They believed in God, but were not big fans of demagogues that pushed dogma down people's throats as something that you were not allowed to question or disagree with. A great majority of those that actually formed our government questioned everything, and certainly didn't consider any religious text beyond scrutiny.

As for murder....I beleive murder has been illegal in every civilization in every time in man's history. Granted at times only illegal for certain segments of society while the elite did as they pleased...but even then it was illegal for the elite to kill the elite with out provication. I do not think there is any religion that can claim to have invented the idea that murder is wrong. If such a religion ever existed as the first founder of the idea of murder, then like an original idea it got away before someone could shoot it stuff it, and put it in a museum.

That said, many many many civilizations have practiced many different forms of abortion, and the fact that we are even devided on this subject today shows that it is not a topic that is so easily painted black and white like the subject of murder.

If it were my own child I would not at all want to have an abortion, I would very much want us to keep it. That said I think that should be up to me and my wife, and the governemnt, and nosey self righteous zealots can keep their nose the hell out of our family affairs.

This is such a huge topic, i chose other opinions, i do think abortion is wrong by all means, i don't believe in "accidents" you either protect yourself properly or deal with the outcome don't just get rid of it, my friend here at work (as well as her husband) carry the krabbe gene, this is a very serious diease which usually always causes death in infants after 1 year of age, she is now pregnant with a baby boy who is 100% healthy, if she took the tests and her child had the disease i know she would choose abortion because she watched her last baby die in front of her for several months, i wouldn't wish that upon anyone, not even my worst enemy, it's a hard subject for me because i'm a mommy of a happy healthy 15 month old little girl and she means the world to me, it really upsets me that someone could use abortion as a method of birth control, i do consider it murder if that fetus is 100% healthy, if it has a disease which it would not survive or be seriously sick for life then i don't consider it murder. this is all my opinion.


GUNNER

I am for abortion! Simply because if someone raped a girl, and she don't wanna have that child! If his/her father is an idiot, sadist, maniac etc. and the genes get on the baby! Now that's not very pleasent..... Also other reasons.........

I haven't met a single person who have used abortion as a borth control.

I am more talking about other situations.

Rape, Diseases, Financial Problem, Psycholigal Problems, etc.

Originally Posted by SilverPhoenix

I haven't met a single person who have used abortion as a borth control.

I am more talking about other situations.

Rape, Diseases, Financial Problem, Psycholigal Problems, etc.

I've met a few people who have "accidently" gotten pregnant and had an abortion because they didn't want a baby to me that is defined birth control. And i don't believe abortion is murder when a fetus has a disease and wouldn't otherwise survive or would suffer a horrible life, i'm not too sure about rape, the woman could still give the child for adoption.



GUNNER

Originally Posted by GUNNER

[ i'm not too sure about rape, the woman could still give the child for adoption.

speaking as someone who has suffered through a rape.... If it had impregnated me I'm not sure if I could have carried the child to term. Yes, the woman COULD give the child up for adoption....... But she's gotta carry that baby for nine months....... Theres alot of psychology involved there, ya know??

Originally Posted by nulli secundus

according to the law it isnt murder due to the case that it hasnt been born yet. So you cant kill what hasnt lived yet.

if it has a heartbeat it's very much alive (my opinion)

GUNNER

Originally Posted by mvilla2426

speaking as someone who has suffered through a rape.... If it had impregnated me I'm not sure if I could have carried the child to term. Yes, the woman COULD give the child up for adoption....... But she's gotta carry that baby for nine months....... Theres alot of psychology involved there, ya know??

yea i know, i've never suffered a rape, but of course it would be hard to go through with it. This is a hard topic especially if you've never been pregnant and have children, pregnancy is wonderful and babies are just miracles sent from god (now i sound like god sheesh) but until i had a baby really i thought a woman had a right to do whatever but now that i've been through pregnancy and watch my daughter playing and get hugs and kisses from her i just think it's wrong unless there is a medical reason for it. I thank god everyday for giving a beautiful, healthy baby.


GUNNER

Originally Posted by GUNNER

yea i know, i've never suffered a rape, but of course it would be hard to go through with it. This is a hard topic especially if you've never been pregnant and have children, pregnancy is wonderful and babies are just miracles sent from god (now i sound like god sheesh) but until i had a baby really i thought a woman had a right to do whatever but now that i've been through pregnancy and watch my daughter playing and get hugs and kisses from her i just think it's wrong unless there is a medical reason for it. I thank god everyday for giving a beautiful, healthy baby.

I think we all agree that we don't want to abort your daughter, Gunner... I think you look at this to much from the wrong perspective.

And giving children up for adoption is something so hard on the mother and the children, that you should never do that lightly. That should only be considered if there's no other way. I know there's lot's of people out there doing the best they can for children who are up for adoption or adopted, but those children are often pretty traumatized for the rest of their lives.

as for the "Heartbeat = life" phrase, I'm not a vegetarian, so I actually eat things that had a heartbeat once. The thing that sets us apart from (other) animals isn't the heartbeat, it's the cognitive processes. And I think that sometimes people should consider that it's possible that those cognitive processes are better off not ever initiated than protected and burdened with trauma's and questions for the rest of their lives.

As for giving a child from a rape up for adoption, no, that's cruel and unusual punishment for someone that didn't do anything wrong in the first place; the mother. Not only does she have to deal with the rape (many women never fully recover) but now she has to be reminded of this for nine months, and then she can wonder for the rest of her life if the thing that made her attacker rape her, will make her son do the same thing to someone else.

I think that abortion should be the mother's free choice, with some rights for the father too btw, and that it's not fair if people that haven't been in a situation that left them not much of a choice, decide that it's "wrong".

o.k. i'm not saying i'm against abortion, i wouldn't shun someone for aborting a rape baby, it's only my opinion that unless it's a medical reason abortion shouldn't be used, to me once the fetus has a heartbeat it has as much a right to live as you and i that's all i'm saying, end of discussion.


GUNNER