Why did Germany lose WW2?

If the Ultra informations were that reliable and essential,why was London not ordering Freyberg to change his strategy in function of the Ultra informations ?

From :"Intelligence lessons learned from the battle of Crete"

P 17:Was Freyberg to defend against the historically unprecedented airborne assault with intelligence he did not fully understand and could not discuss with his staff,or was he to defend against the more historically likely seaborne assault with the addition of an airborne element . Freyberg chose the latter .

P 18:While Ultra provided a remarkable volume of extremely valuable and accurate intelligence regarding plans for the invasion,it could not provide all of the information Freyberg needed at the times he needed it .

P 19:Intelligence alone probably could not have prevented the German victory in Crete nor did intelligence alone lose the battle for the allies.
 
Who is using insults,is proving to have no arguments .

You are a certifiable idiot. I suggest that you learn to read.

If the Ultra informations were that reliable and essential,why was London not ordering Freyberg to change his strategy in function of the Ultra informations ?

How the hell can London order Freberg to change his strategy in the middle of a battle? A battle field can change within minutes. You have for once proven me wrong, I thought you couldn't be more stupid, you have just proven you can be.

From :"Intelligence lessons learned from the battle of Crete"

P 17:Was Freyberg to defend against the historically unprecedented airborne assault with intelligence he did not fully understand and could not discuss with his staff,or was he to defend against the more historically likely seaborne assault with the addition of an airborne element . Freyberg chose the latter .

Freyberg was a very experienced senior officer, Freyberg had excelled in planning set-piece attacks, such as at Operation Supercharge at Alamein, Operation Supercharge II at Tebaga Gap, and in the storming of the Senio line in 1945. He was given clear and concise intelligence from German radio transcripts, however he was convinced that a landing by sea was the bigger threat than the airborne and acted on that conviction.

P 18:While Ultra provided a remarkable volume of extremely valuable and accurate intelligence regarding plans for the invasion,it could not provide all of the information Freyberg needed at the times he needed it .

I really wonder if you are capable of reading. NOT ONLY did he have ULTRA intelligence, as pointed out by Monty the German Battle Plan was captured and still he failed to adapt.

P 19:Intelligence alone probably could not have prevented the German victory in Crete nor did intelligence alone lose the battle for the allies.

WHAT? Intelligence didn't win or lose anything. As I suggested, go back to playing with toy cars.
 
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I think he was, Crete was defensible as proven by the fact that they damn near did defend it.

1) It wasn't only Ultra giving him intel, they had captured the German battle plan and still he failed to adapt.

2) Sure he knew that the island was to be reinforced by sea but he also knew that the Royal Navy had the upper hand in the area making any seaborne landing risky at best.

3) No the invasion succeeded because he failed to listen to Ultra, Intel on the ground, captured intel and worst of all he failed to adapt once he knew what was going on, Freybergs problem as has been pointed out in books on the subject is that he did not believe the island was defensible and wanted it evacuated.
If they damn near did defend it ,this means that lost .
Why was he failing to adapt ? Maybe,because he could not ?
That the RN had the upper hand,was neutralized by the fact that the LW also had the upperhand.
That Freyberg wanted the island to be evacuated ,was a defensible position :the strategic importance of the island was more illusion than reality,the defense of the island was tying forces and resources,Britain needed elsewhere.
 
Intelligence reports are part of the fog of war. Only history will tell if it was right. To the commander who acts on it it is still a gamble.
 
If they damn near did defend it ,this means that lost .
Why was he failing to adapt ? Maybe,because he could not ?
That the RN had the upper hand,was neutralized by the fact that the LW also had the upperhand.
That Freyberg wanted the island to be evacuated ,was a defensible position :the strategic importance of the island was more illusion than reality,the defense of the island was tying forces and resources,Britain needed elsewhere.

Yes it does mean they lost but they lost because of their own operational failings and not German force superiority.
Brigadier Inglis commander of the New Zealand 4th Brigade on Crete was asked to brief Churchill on what he thought went wrong and his response was...

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica]"I am far from reassured about the tactical conduct of the defense by General Freyberg.... There appears to have been no counter-attack of any kind in the Western sector until more than 36 hours after the airborne descents had begun. There was no attempt to form a mobile reserve of the best troops.... The whole seems to have been of static defence of positions, instead of the rapid extirpation at all costs of the airborne landing parties."


The reality is that he misinterpreted the Ultra data he was given and failed to adequately defend the airfields even when he knew they were the primary goal of the invasion and in the end I am not sure he used his more able commanders like Inglis and Kippenberger well enough even though they seemed to have far greater understanding of the battle they were about to undergo.


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This is the end,for the moment, of the intervention of colonel Blimp.

Don't be an idiot all of your life, take a day off once in a while.

Intelligence reports are part of the fog of war. Only history will tell if it was right. To the commander who acts on it it is still a gamble.

The ULTRA intelligence Freyberg received was extremely accurate, supported by the capture of the German order of battle and as pointed out in previous posts Freyberg misinterpreted the intelligence he was given.

It has been stated that the German parachute attack was a tiny part of the invading force, when in fact they made up 44% of the total of the boots on the ground.
 
Yes it does mean they lost but they lost because of their own operational failings and not German force superiority.
Brigadier Inglis commander of the New Zealand 4th Brigade on Crete was asked to brief Churchill on what he thought went wrong and his response was...



The reality is that he misinterpreted the Ultra data he was given and failed to adequately defend the airfields even when he knew they were the primary goal of the invasion and in the end I am not sure he used his more able commanders like Inglis and Kippenberger well enough even though they seemed to have far greater understanding of the battle they were about to undergo.


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To ask a subordinate after a defeat :what went wrong ? is a loaded question :you can expect that the subordinate will blame his superior.

Otherwise,Inglis should say :the Germans were better/ WE failed(meaning : I failed),which is not very likely .
More probable is :it is the fault of the commander in chief .

In "the fall of Crete 1941:was Freyberg culpable?" Major Bliss makes the point tat Freyberg could not ignore the possibility of the seaborne invasion .On 13 may,Freyberg received an Ultra transcript(a lot of which was the usual crap),which started as following :

"The following summarizes intentions against Crete from operation orders issued".
Any commander would object to this sentence : the mission of intelligence is to give the commander facts,not analysis or assumptions .

Point 10 is mentioning the following :invading force :30000 to 35000 men,12000 by parachute,10000 by sea .
The 13000 others : by teleporter ?:lol:

Most of the Ultra reports were not facts,but interpretations by an unknown low grade analyst in Bletchley Park ,who tried to influence the decisions of Freyberg .

At the outset of the attack,Student did not know where the main point of the invasion would be .
 
To ask a subordinate after a defeat :what went wrong ? is a loaded question :you can expect that the subordinate will blame his superior.

Otherwise,Inglis should say :the Germans were better/ WE failed(meaning : I failed),which is not very likely .
More probable is :it is the fault of the commander in chief .

Of course its the fault of the Commander in Chief, he is the man in charge.


In "the fall of Crete 1941:was Freyberg culpable?" Major Bliss makes the point tat Freyberg could not ignore the possibility of the seaborne invasion .On 13 may,Freyberg received an Ultra transcript(a lot of which was the usual crap),which started as following :

"The following summarizes intentions against Crete from operation orders issued".
Any commander would object to this sentence : the mission of intelligence is to give the commander facts,not analysis or assumptions .

What was in the transcript that you state was crap, where is your proof, were you reading it over his shoulder? Freyberg got facts from ULTRA as to the German order of Battle not assumptions, and you chose to ignore like the cretin you are he had the captured German order of battle.

Most of the Ultra reports were not facts,but interpretations by an unknown low grade analyst in Bletchley Park ,who tried to influence the decisions of Freyberg .

Absolute nonsense, why would anyone try to influence Freyberg, what did he hope to gain? How do you know most of the ULTRA reports were not facts, were you there?

Point 10 is mentioning the following :invading force :30000 to 35000 men,12000 by parachute,10000 by sea .
The 13000 others : by teleporter ?:lol:.

The German paratroopers had at their disposal 500 transport planes, 75 gliders, 280 bombers, 150 dive-bombers, 180 fighters and 40 reconnaissance planes. In total, they had 10,000 men who could be dropped by parachute and they had a total attack force of 22,500 men.

You are a legend in your own mind. You really need to get out more and sweep the roads or something.
 
He can't even read and calculate :
the Ultra report was mentioning a German force of 30000/35000 men (which means :zero of reliability),12000 by parachute,10000 by sea,and the remainder ? by teleporter ;)

And,the report started with :

The following summarizes intentions against Crete from operation orders issued.

A summary is a partial information,some parts were omitted . Why ? Who took the decision to not give Freyberg all informations ? On what grounds were certain things not mentioned ?

How can one have the intentions from operation orders ?

Better would be :the following are the assumptions (of an anonymous mow grade bureaucrat at BP) of the intentions of the Germans .

The following is from the chief of the BP PR section (Hinsley) :
"BP felt very strongly for the first time in the war that its product had not been used properly in the case of the Crete invasion ."

And,now,Hinsley is saying the following :"I think possibly that we were wrong now that we can see the evidence in more detail".

Hinsley is admitting the possibility that Freyberg was using the Ultra informations correctly,and is thus debunking your attempt to blame poor Freyberg for the British defeat .

But,wait :I kwow what you will reply :Hinsley also was a cretin (as all people who disagree with you ).
 
He can't even read and calculate :
the Ultra report was mentioning a German force of 30000/35000 men (which means :zero of reliability),12000 by parachute,10000 by sea,and the remainder ? by teleporter ;)

And,the report started with :

The following summarizes intentions against Crete from operation orders issued.

A summary is a partial information,some parts were omitted . Why ? Who took the decision to not give Freyberg all informations ? On what grounds were certain things not mentioned ?

How can one have the intentions from operation orders ?

Better would be :the following are the assumptions (of an anonymous mow grade bureaucrat at BP) of the intentions of the Germans .

The following is from the chief of the BP PR section (Hinsley) :
"BP felt very strongly for the first time in the war that its product had not been used properly in the case of the Crete invasion ."

And,now,Hinsley is saying the following :"I think possibly that we were wrong now that we can see the evidence in more detail".

Hinsley is admitting the possibility that Freyberg was using the Ultra informations correctly,and is thus debunking your attempt to blame poor Freyberg for the British defeat .

But,wait :I kwow what you will reply :Hinsley also was a cretin (as all people who disagree with you ).

The reason Freyberg did not have all of the Ultra decrypt was that he was never told Ultra was the source of the information he was told it was from "a good source in Athens".

This was standard practice in order to prevent the Ultra secret falling into German hands if they had been captured.

I would also point out though that German intelligence on this issue was equally bad with the Abwehr putting the islands defense force at 5000 men.
 
Don't be an idiot all of your life, take a day off once in a while.



The ULTRA intelligence Freyberg received was extremely accurate, supported by the capture of the German order of battle and as pointed out in previous posts Freyberg misinterpreted the intelligence he was given.

It has been stated that the German parachute attack was a tiny part of the invading force, when in fact they made up 44% of the total of the boots on the ground.

We only now if intelligence was accurate after it happend. Did Freyberg misinterpreted the intelligence or did he not believed it? I didn't do any research on that so it is just a question.

Just before the invasion of Belgium by the Germans Belgian police got the invasion plans from a German officer who crashed with his plane in Belgium. The belgians didn't act on it, propably thinking the Germans would change it anyway now that the "enemy" knew.
 
Officer breaks ranks over the battle of Crete"

"NZ major general Thomas says poor leadershipby NZ commanders on Crete directly led to the loss of the battle.
The 2 men in Mr Thomas's sights are colonel Andrews and Brigadier Hargest ."

End of the article.

BTW:
1)Thomas was at Crete
2)Thomas does not blame freyberg .

"
 
We only now if intelligence was accurate after it happend. Did Freyberg misinterpreted the intelligence or did he not believed it? I didn't do any research on that so it is just a question.

Just before the invasion of Belgium by the Germans Belgian police got the invasion plans from a German officer who crashed with his plane in Belgium. The belgians didn't act on it, propably thinking the Germans would change it anyway now that the "enemy" knew.


The question is :why should Freyberg believe inconditionally informations from a mysterious source and base his strategy on these informations ?
Other question :if he did,why would Crete have been a success,considering the very bad British situation before the landing ?

When Freyberg arrived at Crete (3 weeks before the atttack),nothing had been done (there had been 7 commanders in 6 months):no fortifications,there were no tanks,air defence was inexistent,etc,etc....
 
From the New Zealand history site...

The controversies - The Battle for Crete


People have argued about the Battle for Crete since it occurred. The Allied forces on the island knew of the enemy’s intentions and had the chance to inflict a humiliating defeat on the Germans – the first they would have suffered on land during the war. Who was responsible for the mistakes that allowed the Germans to gain control of the vital airfield at Maleme and hold it against subsequent counter-attacks?
Mistakes at Maleme

Maleme area, 20 May 1941

There is debate about the officers responsible for operations in the Maleme sector. The actions of Lieutenant-Colonel Leslie Andrew VC, the commander of 22nd Battalion in the crucial positions dominating the airfield, have come under question; some think he may have lost his nerve. Andrew’s decision to pull back off Hill 107 during the night of 20–21 May 1941 opened the way for the Germans to occupy it without opposition on the morning of the 21st. Assuming incorrectly that two of his companies on the edge of the airfield had been overrun, Andrew decided to pull back to defensive positions before daylight, when the Luftwaffe (German air force) would make such a manoeuvre too dangerous.
The commanders of the neighbouring battalions, Lieutenant-Colonels J.M. Allen (21st Battalion) and D.F. Leckie (23rd Battalion), have also been criticised for failing to carry out their pre-invasion orders: to counter-attack immediately if the Germans secured a lodgement on the airfield. A failure to perceive the danger, some uncertainty in the pre-invasion orders and the lack of drive exhibited by their superior ensured that neither battalion intervened to assist 22nd Battalion. But the suggestion by historian Tony Simpson that Leckie had a nervous breakdown on the first morning which accounts for 23rd Battalion’s failure to go to 22nd’s assistance can be discounted. Although Simpson’s claim was based on the recollection of an officer of the battalion, several others who were present have strongly rejected any suggestion that Leckie was incapacitated. Instead, they have pointed to the orders he received from his superior, Brigadier James Hargest, 5th (NZ) Brigade’s commander.
Hargest has come under most scrutiny. His lethargy and lack of judgement during the first two days of the battle placed a spotlight on how he came to be serving with the 2nd New Zealand Expeditionary Force (2NZEF). In 1939 he had been found unfit for overseas service but had secured a commission through his political connections as a Member of Parliament. Hargest accepted Andrew’s plans to pull back from Hill 107 during the 20th – ‘If you must, you must’ – and led Leckie and Allen to believe that 22nd Battalion was holding its own at Maleme without the need for assistance. The fact that he remained at his headquarters, well removed from the scene of action, has also been criticised.
Controversy also surrounds the actions of the temporary commander of the 2nd New Zealand Division, Brigadier Edward Puttick. His failure to order a counter-attack on the German concentration in the Prison Valley on the 20th was perhaps his biggest tactical error of the campaign. He was reluctant to commit his reserves because of a fear of a further airborne landing, but more especially because of the perceived threat from the sea. He too failed to grasp the situation on the first day and ensure a more aggressive response on Hargest’s part.
Freyberg’s leadership

Andrews, Hargest and Freyberg in Egypt

Creforce commander Major-General Bernard Freyberg has also been the subject of considerable criticism. As overall commander of the Allied forces on Crete, he must take responsibility for the failure. His performance was criticised at the time by several of his subordinates. Hargest, for example, complained to Prime Minister Peter Fraser that Freyberg did not ‘keep control over the conduct of operations’, failed to take his senior officers into his confidence and occasionally left doubts as to his intentions.
Brigadier Lindsay Inglis, commander of 4th (NZ) Brigade, also raised doubts about Freyberg’s conduct of the battle at a meeting with British Prime Minister Winston Churchill in London shortly afterwards. These contemporary criticisms have been echoed more recently by several British historians (Antony Beevor, Callum MacDonald) in light of revelations of the ULTRA intelligence available to Freyberg. They accuse him of muddled thinking and of making a key mistake on 21 May based on a misreading of an ULTRA signal. This, they argued, led to the counter-attack by 28th (Maori) and 20th Battalions being fatally delayed on Freyberg’s orders because he expected an imminent seaborne attack.
Freyberg made serious tactical errors in both his dispositions (especially leaving the area west of the Tavronitis River unguarded) and his response to the invasion. But the ULTRA argument is too simplistic as an explanation for the failure of the crucial counter-attack. Even if that attack was delayed by Freyberg, there can be no certainty it would have succeeded if it had gone ahead at the earlier time planned – given that it was in two-battalion strength only and the Germans at the airfield had been reinforced by fresh troops the previous day.







http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/war/the-battle-for-crete/the-controversies

My personal opinion is that Andrews has become the scapegoat for the mistakes made when in reality his actions were absolutely correct, he could no longer hold the position having been repeatedly refused reinforcements that we both available and allocated to him so after consultation with his remaining officers they withdrew under cover of darkness to make contact with the rest of the New Zealand force defending the area and prepare for a counter attack first thing in the morning.
 
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We only now if intelligence was accurate after it happend. Did Freyberg misinterpreted the intelligence or did he not believed it? I didn't do any research on that so it is just a question.

Freyberg did misinterpreted ULTRA, on top of that as pointed out by Monty, Freyberg had the captured German order of battle. Perhaps Freyberg was convinced from the get go that Crete was a lost cause. In my opinion the whole Greece/Crete affair was a complete hash up from start to finish.

Just before the invasion of Belgium by the Germans Belgian police got the invasion plans from a German officer who crashed with his plane in Belgium. The belgians didn't act on it, propably thinking the Germans would change it anyway now that the "enemy" knew.

What springs to mind here is, could this have been another example of "The man who never was."? I for one would have been very suspicious of invasions plans simply "Dropping into my lap."
 
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He can't even read and calculate :
the Ultra report was mentioning a German force of 30000/35000 men (which means :zero of reliability),12000 by parachute,10000 by sea,and the remainder ? by teleporter ;)

You really are a certifiable idiot.

I wasn't posting what ULTRA had stated, the actual number of troops and equipment available was as I mentioned, "The German paratroopers had at their disposal 500 transport planes, 75 gliders, 280 bombers, 150 dive-bombers, 180 fighters and 40 reconnaissance planes. In total, they had 10,000 men who could be dropped by parachute and they had a total attack force of 22,500 men."


And,the report started with :

The following summarizes intentions against Crete from operation orders issued.

A summary is a partial information,some parts were omitted . Why ? Who took the decision to not give Freyberg all informations ? On what grounds were certain things not mentioned ?

How can one have the intentions from operation orders ?

Better would be :the following are the assumptions (of an anonymous mow grade bureaucrat at BP) of the intentions of the Germans .

You keep on harping on about a low grade analyst like a demented budgie. There were no low grade analyst at Bletchley Park. The radio intercepts were worked on by a team, not just one person. The information gleaned from German radio intercepts wasn't not transmitted by Bletchley Park to commanders in the field, it was sent to very senior officers who decided what was transmitted to field commanders not some so called low grade, high grade or multi grade analyst at Bletchley Park.

What exactly were omitted from ULTRA intelligence? You keep making statements without actually backing them up.

The following is from the chief of the BP PR section (Hinsley) :
"BP felt very strongly for the first time in the war that its product had not been used properly in the case of the Crete invasion ."

YES BECAUSE FREYBERG HAD MISINTERPRETED IT YOU CRETIN.:bang:

And,now,Hinsley is saying the following :"I think possibly that we were wrong now that we can see the evidence in more detail".

Hinsley is admitting the possibility that Freyberg was using the Ultra informations correctly,and is thus debunking your attempt to blame poor Freyberg for the British defeat .

But,wait :I kwow what you will reply :Hinsley also was a cretin (as all people who disagree with you ).

The only cretin here is you. Not only did Freyberg misinterpret ULTRA he also ignored the captured German order of battle. OK Einstein who in your opinion was the blame for the Crete debacle if it wasn't Freyberg? Knowing you, it will probably be little green men.
 
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Well,mister cretin:The captured order of battle was not unimportant,otherwise,Freyberg would not have ignored it .

And,mister cretin :who was to blame for the Crete debacle ? It is very obvious: the Germans.But,this will never be admitted by jingoistic persons as you whose only argument is :we are the champions.And,if we lost,some one must be blamed .

Ultra was talking about a seaborne invasion,thus,one can not blame Freyberg for taking measures against a seaborne invasion .
 
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Perhaps Freyberg was convinced from the get go that Crete was a lost cause.

Perhaps:p you are wrong :

on 2 may:Freyberg wrote to Wavell :the force here can and will fight,but without full support from the Navy and the RAF,cannot hope to repel the invasion .

on 16 may ,Freyberg wrote :with the help of the Navy, I trust that Crete will be held .
 
Well,mister cretin:The captured order of battle was not unimportant,otherwise,Freyberg would not have ignored it .

I didn't think you could get more stupid, you have proven you can.

And,mister cretin :who was to blame for the Crete debacle ? It is very obvious: the Germans.But,this will never be admitted by jingoistic persons as you whose only argument is :we are the champions.And,if we lost,some one must be blamed
.

The Germans were responsible for the debacle in Crete??? Jingoistic??? Have you always been this stupid or did you have an accident or did your mother drop you on your head?

Ultra was talking about a seaborne invasion,thus,one can not blame Freyberg for taking measures against a seaborne invasion .

Wrong again, ULTRA warned of airborne attacks.

From the end of April, a stream of ‘Ultra’ intelligence, decrypted by the code-breaking office at Bletchley Park, indicated that the Germans were very near to launching an all-out airborne invasion of Crete with the emphasis being on the capture of the airfields and then following that up with air transport of reinforcements, with some coming by sea. This information was passed along to Freyburg, but its impact was diluted, as to protect the Ultra secret Freyberg was told that the information had come from ‘highly placed spies in Athens’. Further confirmation came when a Bf 110 crashed in Suda Bay and was found to have the map case and operational order for the 3rd Fallschirmjäger Regiment and a summery of the whole operation.

Allied commanders had become aware of the imminent invasion through Ultra intercepts. General Freyberg was informed of the air component of the German battle plan, and started to prepare a defence based near the airfields and along the north coast. In addition, although the Ultra-derived intelligence that Freyberg received was very detailed, it was taken out of context and misinterpreted. While emphasis was placed on the airborne assault the German messages mentioned seaborne operations, which seriously affected Freyberg's troop deployment, as he expected an amphibious landing, consequently detracting from the defence of the main German objective of the Maleme airfield.

Go back to playing computer games, thats all you are capable of.
 
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