Those who dont belive that Russian jets are good..

Snauhi

Active member
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/06/23/airforce.supremacy.reut/index.html

WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- United States must modernize its fighter jets to maintain air supremacy, a top Air Force general said Wednesday citing the success of advanced Russian-made jets against American planes in a recent exercise as signaling an erosion of its overwhelming advantage.

Gen. Hal Hornburg, head of U.S. Air Combat Command, said a U.S. air-to-air exercise with the Indian Air Force in February, in which India used Russian jets to defeat aging American F-15Cs, revealed "that we may not be as far ahead of the rest of the world as we once thought we were."

Defense experts in both the United States and Europe, however, have said it is unlikely that America -- with vast spending power and a major industrial base -- would lose its dominance in military technology.

U.S. defense officials have said Indian SU-30, Mig-27 and older MiG-21 jets, some armed with Russian-made AA-10 air-to-air missiles, got the best of F-15s based in Alaska in exercise "Cope India" high over northern India.

Hornburg said in an interview with military writers the air maneuvers emphasized his service's push for expensive, stealthy new F/A-22 "Raptors" being built by Lockheed Martin Corp. and F-35 Joint Strike Fighters being designed by Lockheed with input from allies.

He declined to discuss classified results of the exercise but said, "Something like Cope India, when we find that some of our advantages aren't as great as we thought they might be, leads me to remind people that we need to modernize our air-to-air capability."

Hornburg added, "We have been saying for a long time that we need newer fighters to do more things," and that the Indian exercise could be a "wake-up call" for Washington.

Russia's Sukhoi aviation works and the Moscow Air Production Organization company have been designing and building increasingly advanced fighters such as the MiG-29 in recent years. India, China and other countries are buying the warplanes -- some with contracts for co-production.

France and Sweden also build advanced combat planes and a consortium of four European countries, including Britain, are producing the Eurofighter "Typhoon" jet.

"I see air forces across the spectrum and across the world becoming better and better as each year passes. That just means that we have to do the same thing," said Hornburg.

"With air superiority, everything is possible. Without it, hardly anything's possible" he added. "People jump to the conclusion that it is ours just because we go. And that's blatantly false."
 
http://www.indiadefence.com/COPE.htm

yes the USAF had its ass handed to them by the Indian Pilots. What the main CNN article doesn't focus on is how they did it.

It would seem that four US Aircraft facing 12 Indian aircraft is not supposed to be a unfair advantage...seems like the US also didn't use its early warning assets in a meaningful way. and where did lose its effectiveness? seems like the long range war was the scenario played by the combatants.

Yes, there was a surprise from the technological advancements of the russian aircraft. read the article posted above to discover just why the indians learn to use them so well.

Hope the US learned not to use its assets in a way they weren't originally designed for. In the US, it was the F-14 that was designed for the long distance, stand off fight with the phoenix missile, camera acquisition, and telemetry beam-in from the E-2 hawkeyes to achieve long range superiority. :D
 
Nobody said they are bad! Just that US are better. 4:12? No wonder they won. Anyway F-15 is old plane, it would be a shame not to overrun it in 30 years.... Anyway Raptor is the best no doubt! 70 kills over F-15, now let's see those Indians beat up him ;)
 
Or maybe they ordered pilots to be bad! Here's a logical reason: Senate is not very happy about spending more money on Raptor. By this, the Raptor now must be a prioritay!
"Hornburg said in an interview with military writers the air maneuvers emphasized his service's push for expensive, stealthy new F/A-22 "Raptors" being built by Lockheed Martin Corp. and F-35 Joint Strike Fighters being designed by Lockheed with input from allies. "
This is what am I saying.
Also:
"Hornburg added, "We have been saying for a long time that we need newer fighters to do more things," and that the Indian exercise could be a "wake-up call" for Washington."
 
Uncle_Sam said:
Nobody said they are bad! Just that US are better. 4:12? No wonder they won. Anyway F-15 is old plane, it would be a shame not to overrun it in 30 years.... Anyway Raptor is the best no doubt! 70 kills over F-15, now let's see those Indians beat up him ;)

F-15 is the main US fighter....
 
Uncle_Sam said:
Or maybe they ordered pilots to be bad! Here's a logical reason: Senate is not very happy about spending more money on Raptor. By this, the Raptor now must be a prioritay!
"Hornburg said in an interview with military writers the air maneuvers emphasized his service's push for expensive, stealthy new F/A-22 "Raptors" being built by Lockheed Martin Corp. and F-35 Joint Strike Fighters being designed by Lockheed with input from allies. "
This is what am I saying.
Also:
"Hornburg added, "We have been saying for a long time that we need newer fighters to do more things," and that the Indian exercise could be a "wake-up call" for Washington."

I like the way you think Sam...and probably correct too! Trust ole CNN to keep the fires lit under the senators to get the funding... :D
 
but it will take a long time and money to make a Raptor and i bet it will take years to upgrade all f15's to F22's. :?
 
Its not really that critical yet Snauhi:

1. Even though in this one particular case things went bad for the US Air Force, they now know some more limitations on the F-15 Air Frame and avionics. Some simple changes in tactics, and the correct arming of the aircraft for a forward area mode of battle can usually fix the disadvantages and the off sets between the aircraft. At least they pass the tactical data of the exercise back, so that new tactics can be developed, or maybe new equipment can be obtained to fix the rough areas.

2. For all its sophistication, the raptor isn't really that hard to build, once the main tooling dies and kilns are in place. Since this plane uses a lot of composites, it mostly has to be baked or "cooked" to make it. beats thousand and thousand of rivets.

just a little reminder:

The F-15s in this exercise went after a numerically superior force, which was equipped with extra fuel for maneuvering, long range atoll missiles so the fight could be started before they got within gun, sparrow or sidewinder range of the F-15s, and the F-15s were essentially flying blind without their E-3 or E-2 support.
 
OK, my points on this:

A) Unless Im mistaken, the F22 and JSF are going operational in the next few years. This will change the whole picture.

B) With all due respect, one exersize means nothing. Mig-21, Mig-23, Mig-25 and even Mig-29 Jets were shot out of the sky by F15s in countless exrsizes, nott to speak of wars. During the 1982 Invasion of Lebanon, the IAF shot down more than 80 Syrian Migs, and lost no planes in Air-to-Air.

C) I have pictures of SU27s in the sights of IAF F16s, and those planes did their best to escape, but given the word would have been shot down.

D) What US enemy has Su-30? Most of the operator nations have poor pilots and therefor stand little chance in the air. India is an exeption because the Indian Air Force has a strong relationship with the RAf and thei pilots are good.

So, as you can see this is all in theory. Most operators wont stand a chance against the USAF.
 
US former enemy Russia have SU-30, and almost all Indians planes were armed with AA-10 missiles ,and they are old.
 
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