Sufism vs Wahabism

Prapor

Active member
For those unfamiliar, these are two different schools of thought in the Islamic faith. Sufism promotes secular ideals, separation of clergy and government, tolerance and respect for others, including those of different religious, ethnic, or cultural identities. Here in Russia, this interpretation of Islam is predominantly popular in Republics of Tatarstan and Bashkortostan. There, Muslims and Orthodox Christians have for centuries lived side by side, in peace, harmony, and mutual understanding. There are many mixed families. Nothing symbolizes this like the Kazan Kremlin, in Kazan, capital of Tatarstan
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The beautiful Russian Orthodox Cathedral of Kazan Mother of God, built by order of Tsar Ivan the Terrible, stands right next to the magnificent, ancient Tatar mosque Kul-Sharif.

When religious occasions happen to coincide, it is very interesting to see large crowds of faithful walking out of both great houses of worship, after the end of their services, and people come across neighbors, coworkers, friends from both confessions; conversations begin, jokes, laughing. That is true Russia, in my opinion.

Well, that is one side of Islam. The other, of course, are the Wahabis. Look at Afghanistan or Somalia (or even certain Paris and London neighborhoods, these days) to see what that is like.

It has infected Chechnya here, and to a lesser extent has spread in Ingushetia, Kabardino-Balkaria, and Dagestan (where now the Dargins and Bats, ethnically related to Chechens and sympathetic to Wahabism are constantly and violently clashing with the Nogai - brother nation to Tatars and Bashkirs, favor Sufism).

I think the West must try to understand this issue: it is not Muslims vs everyone else, it is often enough Muslims vs Muslims. Sufism is widespread among Muslims in India, and also quite popular in Turkey. Those are the people America and Europe should engage, if they want to win their war on terror. Pakistan is not an effective ally in this struggle: country ruled by Wahabis, full of Wahabis. Same as Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia. Work with India. Muslim Indians are ones who invented Sufism, you know. Turkey too, secular, Westernized, believe, many of them, in Sufi ideals. Indonesia as well. Those are the places to focus on.
 
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Hello Prapor, didn't know there are followers of Sufism in Russia, thought its only in India and to some extent in east Asia that we see followers of Sufism.
Sufism has greatly influenced the music in India.Its mix of both Hindu & Muslim culture.
 
Hello Prapor, didn't know there are followers of Sufism in Russia, thought its only in India and to some extent in east Asia that we see followers of Sufism.
Sufism has greatly influenced the music in India.Its mix of both Hindu & Muslim culture.

Well, Sufi Islam is the one that is accepted and promoted by Russian government for our 25,000,000 Muslims. The Head Mufti of Russia, Talgat Tadjuddin, who is from Bashkortostan, follows Sufism. This is a ideology that fights for hearts and minds of Muslim youth here; just as the Orthodox Church is trying to instil more tolerant, open-minded, friendlier values in young Christians. So far Tatarstan and Bashkortostan and, perhaps, Adyghea, can be seen as a success story in this. Not so much for the others.
 
I think muslims should adopts Sufism kind of ideology its working in here in India, still its my personal opinion.
 
I think muslims should adopts Sufism kind of ideology its working in here in India, still its my personal opinion.

I agree. Tatars are great people, probably in part because of their Sufi ways. Drink same like we do. In Kazan, great bars, with very pretty ladies.
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Good people. Our brothers.
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Thank you for sharing Propor! Very beautiful looking city. I've been meaning to visit Russia for years. I've always loved the history and I may still have family there.
 
Sure, no problem. Kazan is a great city. Actually, the current Tatar President, Rustam Minnikhanov
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has said he will turn Kazan into "Russia's Las Vegas". Build casinos, nightclubs, etc. Apparently he is trying get permission from Putin at these very moments...

Well, they already have the largest and, frankly, most exentric nightclub in the country, the recently built Piramida
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Amazing place, I've been. They are on their way lol Kazan is already considered our 3d Capital (after Moscow "THE Capital", and Saint Petersburg "Northern Capital"; and Sochi is number four, or so they consider themselves, Olympic city and Putin and Medvedev both have residences there of course, spend a lot of time there). Putin referred to Kazan as "3d Capital" in conversation with Minnikhanov, and it stuck ever since. :)
 
Ummm, let's be accurate please. This a very complex subject...

These are two schools among many schools of thought in Islam. And they are a minority. 90% of Muslims are considered Sunnites. It means no such thing as clergy... Very very individualistic. Every individual got his own opinion on how to do things and who to support and how to live his life... With NO authority to guide him except his own conscience and knowledge.

And I think it's wrong to let a country like Russia, or any state in the world decide to promote or forbid one school of thought...

Can we allow a new country like Russia to change the path of evolution of a major religion like Islam? This is silly... And arrogant.

Religions shape goverments, it's not the governments that shape religions. Let it be Islam and Russia or Israel and Judaism...

Governments, people, countries... All these things are going to disappear some day... And religions are here to stay.

Suffis are the "hippies" of Islam... We love them because they shut their faces up. Because they dont blow up things when they are not happy... Because they are easy to handle etc etc...

But from an academic point of view. Suffis arent real Muslims... There was no Suffis when Islam started as a religion. They are in fact a sect inspired by Islam...

They are as Muslims as the crusaders were Christians... Or as Jewish as the Zionists are Jewish...

All the trouble we see around comes from this general confusion on these topics... Wahabism, the violent and intolerant school of Islam comes from the Saudis...

We didnt learn much from these major religions (Islam, Christianity and Judaism)... We took out stuff and added stuff to defend our interests... And this is what is destroying the world...

All this nice speech about Sufism is very cute... But it's just another form of something really horrible...

And who are we to judge what is the best school of Islam? How arrogant do we have to be to even think that we can do that?

I think that we played enough with religious concepts, and it came back to bite us in the ass... We tried to trick them into nationalism... And they mixed nationalism with Islam and we got Islamism... Good job.

Now, mix Western secularism with Islam... And when they will see that it's another bastard mixture that doesnt work... What will happen then?

We are not ready for this. We can colonize Mars, but we dont know **** about human nature... Dont go there.
 
Can we allow a new country like Russia to change the path of evolution of a major religion like Islam?

First of all, Russia is not "new". Russia as a civilization is 2000 years old, my friend. Second, Islam is not a country, and Muslim is not a nationality. There is no such thing as a Muslim passport, right? Tatars and other Russian Muslims are citizens of the Russian Federation, that is where they live, and so they must follow the laws of the Russian Federation.

They can believe in whatever God they wish, but in this country, they will live as people of this country should.

My dream is that, eventually, some day, in the future, we will turn North Caucasus into something resembling Tatarstan. And why not? Couple hundred years ago, Tatars and Bashkirs faced the same issues Chechens, Ingush, and Dagestanis deal with today. Poverty, unemployment, isolation, marginalization, radicalization, separatism. Look at them today. :)

Just some famous Tatars for you

General-Major Marat Kulakhmetov
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Hero of the South Ossetia War of 2008. As a Colonel, in Tskhinval, South Ossetia, with his 600 Russian peacekeepers, and a handful of Ossetian militiamen held at bay around 5,000 Georgian soldiers, for two days, until reinforcements from Russia got there. Personally destroyed 5 Georgian tanks with a RPG rocket launcher. Awarded by President Medvedev the title Hero of Russian Federation, promoted to General-Major, now commands all of Russian forces in South Ossetia.

Minister of Internal Affairs of the Russian Federation, General Rashid Nurgaliev
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Head of Russia's police. Has been since I don't know how long, since Yeltsin.

Nikolai Khabibulin
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Hockey player. Goalie for the national team, and also plays in the NHL, right now for Edmonton Oilers, I think.

And there are many, many others, such as Dinara and Marat Safin, the sister and brother tennis stars; singers like Alsu, voted as one of Russia's sexiest women
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(Imagine if she had to cover all this up with rags :D)

No, when Tatars liberated themselves from Islamism, they gave us all a gift, for sure. A wonderful nation of wonderful people.
 
Prapor, well, you have to change how you count the age of a country and the age of a religion.
Where is the Roman empire? It disappeared, it was dominating the Jewish faith for a long time, treating them like slaves, destroying the violent members asking for resistance and to the return of their old ways. Where is this Roman empire? And where is this religion? It's still here.

Nations will disappear someday. Religions are here to stay. That's the idea.

And I dont agree. Who gave you the right to say that they should live this way or another? Would you submit to the same rule if tomorrow the Muslims took control and made you live their way too? I fully disagree with this. People should live as they want to live. And if you are not happy with it, then to bad, as it's not your business.

I know, it would be "simpler" is we could all live the same way. But who said that life have to be simple?
I want a rich society with a LOT of different people. And I dont mean "looking different" I want completely different people...

(Imagine if she had to cover all this up with rags :-D)
Dont scream victory man, she is still wearing "rags" even in this picture...

Well mate, I'm extremely tolerant and protective of moderate Muslims and Islam in general.

I dont like the idea of foreigners getting involved in private affairs of another people. If a muslim woman wants to cover her body with rags... Well, it's her damn right.

If they dont want to drink alcohol, well, good for them I guess... Not like alcohol was such a good thing.

Etc etc... And we have A LOT to learn from different people. If I'm exactly like you, you wont learn anything from me. But if I could bring you an alien from Mars you would be learning from him for centuries...

Difference is a good thing. No no, it's a wonderful thing...
 
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Prapor, well, you have to change how you count the age of a country and the age of a religion.
Where is the Roman empire? It disappeared, it was dominating the Jewish faith for a long time, treating them like slaves, destroying the violent members asking for resistance and to the return of their old ways. Where is this Roman empire? And where is this religion? It's still here.

Nations will disappear someday. Religions are here to stay. That's the idea.

And I dont agree. Who gave you the right to say that they should live this way or another? Would you submit to the same rule if tomorrow the Muslims took control and made you live their way too? I fully disagree with this. People should live as they want to live. And if you are not happy with it, then to bad, as it's not your business.

I know, it would be "simpler" is we could all live the same way. But who said that life have to be simple?
I want a rich society with a LOT of different people. And I dont mean "looking different" I want completely different people...

Dont scream victory man, she is still wearing "rags" even in this picture...

Well mate, I'm extremely tolerant and protective of moderate Muslims and Islam in general.

I dont like the idea of foreigners getting involved in private affairs of another people. If a muslim woman wants to cover her body with rags... Well, it's her damn right.

If they dont want to drink alcohol, well, good for them I guess... Not like alcohol was such a good thing.

Etc etc... And we have A LOT to learn from different people. If I'm exactly like you, you wont learn anything from me. But if I could bring you an alien from Mars you would be learning from him for centuries...

Difference is a good thing. No no, it's a wonderful thing...

I am not against people being 'different'. I am against mistreatment of women, inequality, et al.

As 'former' Tatar President Mintimer Shaimiev (he is now "Adviser" to current Tatarstan President Rustam Minnikhanov, whom Moscow let him handpicked. They beauty of his post is that Minnikhanov has to ask his advice before making any important decision. So, he retired, and yet he isn't :D A wise man, that is for sure. Been there since USSR fell apart. Has everyone's respect.) says, "Freedom of people to practice their faith must not impede their freedom to not practice this faith, practice a different one, or none at all. Separation of church and state is essential to the success and prosperity of a nation."

A great man
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Shaimiev, and now Minnikhanov continuing in his path, let secular Tatar nationalists to have their say, even lets them into the Mejlis, Tatar local legislature; but Islamists, wahhabis, al qaeda sympathizers are crushed, without mercy. Couple years ago, some wahhabi preachers from dagestan came to Tatarstan, to radicalize youth there. Tatar OMON and Specnaz surrounded the house they and a handful of Tatar collaborators were holed up in, and, without so much as a warning, simply emptied their guns into the house, through walls, doors, windows. The facade had so many bullet holes in it, you could see through the wall. Needless to say, none of the terrorists survived. And they learned their lesson, stayed away from Tatarstan ever since. Tatar Specnaz forces have done well in Chechnya too, killed many terrorists there, with few own losses. Helped kill Hottab, the Turkish or Arab or whatever he was, foreign al Qaeda main man there.

I respect the Tatars, always will. People who shook off the shackles of their faith. My people, Cossacks, cannot do that yet, moving to the other direction, if anything.

P.S. "Dont scream victory man, she is still wearing "rags" even in this picture..."

There are photos of her wearing even less, I just did not think would be appropriate to post them here.
 
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