Pakistan has bin Laden wife, children in custody (Reuters)
roamsk
Active member
I have been meaning for a while to write something on this subject in a more general manner: how should the US treat surviving relatives of known executed or otherwise deceased terrorists, especially if the relatives themselves find themselves in custody or er in the acute phases of grief, such as are attending a funeral or a ritual(istic) death related ceremony of sorts, and some official representative of the US Govt. happens to be present.
I had already jotted down some ideas after UbL has been killed, and I will now permit myself to again jot down some of those ideas with only minor edits.
Please excuse me that, given the importance of this EXTRAORDINARILY COMPLEX subject, I literally did not have enough time to properly compose a more coherent type of "communication", but I think that maybe some of those ideas may be acutely useful to at least someone out there, and that is why I am taking the chance of posting them in raw form.
I also request the Moderators and Administrator of this forum to forgive my unusually long post. I really did this in earnest, hoping that maybe at least one of my thoughts could actually help someone from the US who may be trying to establish now some ground rules on how to communicate with family or CLOSE family or clan members of terrorists who are or have been targets of the United States govt. Please disregard what seems weird or more foolish, since I may be a trained psychiatrist, but am not Specifically trained to work with persons under 18 y/o, nor do I consider myself a true Expert in anything beyond my education, relatively brief work experience as a specialist, and my longer-term observation of direct clinical work experience in various countries around the world carried out by TRUE experts in the profession.
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1. DO NOT SPEAK at all to Male Survivors, unless they are less than 8 years old or older than 65. Even then, only a brief head nod, with a relatively neutral: "sorry for your loss" is enough. Do not elaborate. Do not OFFER anything to them.
If the older men falter:a) if in custody, there are trained medical personnel to deal with it; b) if among their own, there will be younger ones to assist them; do NOT intervene in any way; do NOT touch them, do not shake hands with them. I reapeat- NO OFFER of anything to Males.
(If already in custody, and one believes they may hold valuable information, one should wait for a while before pressuring them to offer anything credible. There are EXPERTS and there should be RULES dealing with the ones already interned somewhere that NEED TO BE CONSULTED. PLEASE consider CHOOSING THOSE EXPERTS among double BOARD CERTIFIED FORENSIC, CHILD & ADOLESCENT PSYCHIATRISTS,[ideally TRIPLE boarded in C&A Psychiatry, Forensic Psychiatry, and Neurology, even MORE IDEALLY, probably Impossible to attain, Qvadruple boarded in the above PLUS Emergency Medicine, or at least with some 5 year or so experience of working in a CPEP, or how do they call those acute 36 hour holding & evaluating places for Psych patients within a general ER setting], with a minimum of 7 years of clinical experience behind them as BOTH Adolescent and Forensic Specialists, EVEN IF the targets of interest are ADULTS. Please, please, please LEAVE for once the Psychologists OUT of it. NO OFFENSE MEANT to our COLLEAGUE Forensically trained psychologists, but PLEASE allow once some TRUE experts, [that one cannot find actually in very great numbers in the United States, they are but a HANDFUL, to participate in Formulating, Amending, Improving or otherwise Refining those "Male Terrorist or Potential Holder of Information Communication Ground Rules". This is very very important and there are good reasons why I actually dare writing this in public at this time, probably risking to incur the COMBINED Wraths of the American Psychological Association, the various European Psychological associations, the current ACTIVE leaders and managers of various US PsyOps Operations who have done things ONE WAY for quite a while and just cannot fathom why tons of paper documented Reliability & Validity of STUFF supportive data could actually be sometimes WRONG and/or Not Applicable. Please, RESEARCH EXPERTS, and PhD's, let once the CLINICAL Experts have a SAY. Let them speak. I would actually go so far as to advise using as expert guides and MEDIATORS between VARIOUS CONFLICTING OPINIONS THAT MAY APPEAR ABOUT THIS, [as those Ground Rules I alluded to do continue to be IMPROVE as we speak], the original advisory team which advised Ms. Janet Reno with the occasion of child Elian Gonzales case when the DECISION was made to REMOVE the child and return him to his father. Whoever participated in that Removal Decision and the WAY it was executed CAN BE TRUSTED, from my POINT of VIEW. This is my perspective. I do not actually DARE elaborate further in public, because, on one hand, I recognize my own KNOWLEDGE and CAPABILITIES limitations in regards to these complicated matters, and, OTOH, I know this may need MEDIATION and SOME SUpportive evidence in order to be implemented, which I do NOT yet posess. I am ONLY opining EMPIRICALLY at this point, which is not really the best way to go about when talking to people who only TRUST MATHS and STATISTICS. PLEASE, PLEASE for ONCE, FORGET ABOUT MATHS when it comes to CHILDREN, and also to INFANTILIZED people who may be in MOURNING or in CUSTODY.)
2. Re. younger than 8 years old females: one may offer a fruit or a plant; do NOT offer Dolls or Teddy bears, or other similarly stuffed animals. Re. choice of plant: if a flower, it should be free, not anchored in a pot, not larger than a length of maybe 7 inches; if potted, one would prefer to offer a similarly sized cactus which does not require a lot of painstaking care. One may hold a hand of a very young girl if she is ALONE, or holds the hand up to you seeking solace, although if accompanied by her mother or another caretaker, one should seek with a glance a quick permission to do so from the eyes of that caretaker, with a gentle not very broad reassuring glance and smile. It is ALWAYS best to have chaperones in the room which are KNOWN by the child, or slightly familiar by face and voice, not NEW ones thrust into the room right then out of necessity, like whatever IMPROVISED on-duty translator.
3. Do not give yet in the beginning TEXTS to read to younger girls, even if they KNOW how to read. It is NOT necessary for them to have the Religious texts. If their older caretaker or mother requests that for herself she will share the information if she WIHES to do so with her wards/daughters. DO NOT AUTOMATICALLY DO THE MOTEL GIDEON BIBLE ALWAYS AVAILABLE THING with these girls. Do NOT TOUCH girls older than 8. One may offer PICTURES, preferably showing OBJECTS or simple PLANTS. Animals MUCH MUCH later. Human Faces probably not for MONTHS. A picture should be the size of a small A4 type paper poster that a young girl, (between 8 and I guess 16), could tape to her wall, and find some solace by looking at it. If older than 16, probably 15, she should be treated as any adult female. WITHOUT OVERFAMILIARITY and WITH RESPECT. There is no "buddy-buddy", or "BFF" type relationship to be EVER established. Someone from ANOTHER culture, yet not looking too obviously physically different, PLUS a good INTERPRETER is actually TO BE PREFERRED. I swear that a Cubanese, other Latin-american, or a non-red haired Middle-Easterner, or even Southern or Eastern European, could actually fit the bill. (Please EXCUSE my bluntness about these physical characteristics, please do NOT consider them unjustly discriminatory, or unduly extremist in any way. THEY ARE NOT MEANT to be so. I hope I shall not suffer the fate of dr. Lawrence Henry Summers of Harvard by being so blunt about these physical charcteristics of interrogators !)
4. To extract information from females, it may be best to choose an older looking female, actually grandmotherly looking, who could establish some form of trusting relationship with them.
5. VERY IMPORTANT FOR all females, of all ages: ALLOW for moments of TRUE privacy, even in custodial situations of intense scrutiny, but then...VERY IMPORTANT: a TRUE POTENTIAL for self-harm, (including means and methods), SHOULD BE PREVIOUSLY VERY VERY STRINGENTLY ASSESSED. The females should be used to CUSTODIAL settings better than the males, also to SHARING rooms with other females, (which can actually be a PROTECTING factor.) Do not worry too much about their FEELINGS. Let them EXPRESS their feelings. ENCOURAGE them to CRY and express feelings OPENLY.
I had already jotted down some ideas after UbL has been killed, and I will now permit myself to again jot down some of those ideas with only minor edits.
Please excuse me that, given the importance of this EXTRAORDINARILY COMPLEX subject, I literally did not have enough time to properly compose a more coherent type of "communication", but I think that maybe some of those ideas may be acutely useful to at least someone out there, and that is why I am taking the chance of posting them in raw form.
I also request the Moderators and Administrator of this forum to forgive my unusually long post. I really did this in earnest, hoping that maybe at least one of my thoughts could actually help someone from the US who may be trying to establish now some ground rules on how to communicate with family or CLOSE family or clan members of terrorists who are or have been targets of the United States govt. Please disregard what seems weird or more foolish, since I may be a trained psychiatrist, but am not Specifically trained to work with persons under 18 y/o, nor do I consider myself a true Expert in anything beyond my education, relatively brief work experience as a specialist, and my longer-term observation of direct clinical work experience in various countries around the world carried out by TRUE experts in the profession.
--------------------------------------
1. DO NOT SPEAK at all to Male Survivors, unless they are less than 8 years old or older than 65. Even then, only a brief head nod, with a relatively neutral: "sorry for your loss" is enough. Do not elaborate. Do not OFFER anything to them.
If the older men falter:a) if in custody, there are trained medical personnel to deal with it; b) if among their own, there will be younger ones to assist them; do NOT intervene in any way; do NOT touch them, do not shake hands with them. I reapeat- NO OFFER of anything to Males.
(If already in custody, and one believes they may hold valuable information, one should wait for a while before pressuring them to offer anything credible. There are EXPERTS and there should be RULES dealing with the ones already interned somewhere that NEED TO BE CONSULTED. PLEASE consider CHOOSING THOSE EXPERTS among double BOARD CERTIFIED FORENSIC, CHILD & ADOLESCENT PSYCHIATRISTS,[ideally TRIPLE boarded in C&A Psychiatry, Forensic Psychiatry, and Neurology, even MORE IDEALLY, probably Impossible to attain, Qvadruple boarded in the above PLUS Emergency Medicine, or at least with some 5 year or so experience of working in a CPEP, or how do they call those acute 36 hour holding & evaluating places for Psych patients within a general ER setting], with a minimum of 7 years of clinical experience behind them as BOTH Adolescent and Forensic Specialists, EVEN IF the targets of interest are ADULTS. Please, please, please LEAVE for once the Psychologists OUT of it. NO OFFENSE MEANT to our COLLEAGUE Forensically trained psychologists, but PLEASE allow once some TRUE experts, [that one cannot find actually in very great numbers in the United States, they are but a HANDFUL, to participate in Formulating, Amending, Improving or otherwise Refining those "Male Terrorist or Potential Holder of Information Communication Ground Rules". This is very very important and there are good reasons why I actually dare writing this in public at this time, probably risking to incur the COMBINED Wraths of the American Psychological Association, the various European Psychological associations, the current ACTIVE leaders and managers of various US PsyOps Operations who have done things ONE WAY for quite a while and just cannot fathom why tons of paper documented Reliability & Validity of STUFF supportive data could actually be sometimes WRONG and/or Not Applicable. Please, RESEARCH EXPERTS, and PhD's, let once the CLINICAL Experts have a SAY. Let them speak. I would actually go so far as to advise using as expert guides and MEDIATORS between VARIOUS CONFLICTING OPINIONS THAT MAY APPEAR ABOUT THIS, [as those Ground Rules I alluded to do continue to be IMPROVE as we speak], the original advisory team which advised Ms. Janet Reno with the occasion of child Elian Gonzales case when the DECISION was made to REMOVE the child and return him to his father. Whoever participated in that Removal Decision and the WAY it was executed CAN BE TRUSTED, from my POINT of VIEW. This is my perspective. I do not actually DARE elaborate further in public, because, on one hand, I recognize my own KNOWLEDGE and CAPABILITIES limitations in regards to these complicated matters, and, OTOH, I know this may need MEDIATION and SOME SUpportive evidence in order to be implemented, which I do NOT yet posess. I am ONLY opining EMPIRICALLY at this point, which is not really the best way to go about when talking to people who only TRUST MATHS and STATISTICS. PLEASE, PLEASE for ONCE, FORGET ABOUT MATHS when it comes to CHILDREN, and also to INFANTILIZED people who may be in MOURNING or in CUSTODY.)
2. Re. younger than 8 years old females: one may offer a fruit or a plant; do NOT offer Dolls or Teddy bears, or other similarly stuffed animals. Re. choice of plant: if a flower, it should be free, not anchored in a pot, not larger than a length of maybe 7 inches; if potted, one would prefer to offer a similarly sized cactus which does not require a lot of painstaking care. One may hold a hand of a very young girl if she is ALONE, or holds the hand up to you seeking solace, although if accompanied by her mother or another caretaker, one should seek with a glance a quick permission to do so from the eyes of that caretaker, with a gentle not very broad reassuring glance and smile. It is ALWAYS best to have chaperones in the room which are KNOWN by the child, or slightly familiar by face and voice, not NEW ones thrust into the room right then out of necessity, like whatever IMPROVISED on-duty translator.
3. Do not give yet in the beginning TEXTS to read to younger girls, even if they KNOW how to read. It is NOT necessary for them to have the Religious texts. If their older caretaker or mother requests that for herself she will share the information if she WIHES to do so with her wards/daughters. DO NOT AUTOMATICALLY DO THE MOTEL GIDEON BIBLE ALWAYS AVAILABLE THING with these girls. Do NOT TOUCH girls older than 8. One may offer PICTURES, preferably showing OBJECTS or simple PLANTS. Animals MUCH MUCH later. Human Faces probably not for MONTHS. A picture should be the size of a small A4 type paper poster that a young girl, (between 8 and I guess 16), could tape to her wall, and find some solace by looking at it. If older than 16, probably 15, she should be treated as any adult female. WITHOUT OVERFAMILIARITY and WITH RESPECT. There is no "buddy-buddy", or "BFF" type relationship to be EVER established. Someone from ANOTHER culture, yet not looking too obviously physically different, PLUS a good INTERPRETER is actually TO BE PREFERRED. I swear that a Cubanese, other Latin-american, or a non-red haired Middle-Easterner, or even Southern or Eastern European, could actually fit the bill. (Please EXCUSE my bluntness about these physical characteristics, please do NOT consider them unjustly discriminatory, or unduly extremist in any way. THEY ARE NOT MEANT to be so. I hope I shall not suffer the fate of dr. Lawrence Henry Summers of Harvard by being so blunt about these physical charcteristics of interrogators !)
4. To extract information from females, it may be best to choose an older looking female, actually grandmotherly looking, who could establish some form of trusting relationship with them.
5. VERY IMPORTANT FOR all females, of all ages: ALLOW for moments of TRUE privacy, even in custodial situations of intense scrutiny, but then...VERY IMPORTANT: a TRUE POTENTIAL for self-harm, (including means and methods), SHOULD BE PREVIOUSLY VERY VERY STRINGENTLY ASSESSED. The females should be used to CUSTODIAL settings better than the males, also to SHARING rooms with other females, (which can actually be a PROTECTING factor.) Do not worry too much about their FEELINGS. Let them EXPRESS their feelings. ENCOURAGE them to CRY and express feelings OPENLY.
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roamsk
Active member
P.S. There may be other more precise stuff to say, applicable in various situations, and depending how privileged and/or westernized (exposed to Western culture), have been the various participants, on whatever pathology they may exhibit as a pre-existing substrate for their direct bereavement process, plus the traumatic experience as witness and/or victim.
DO NOT HURRY WITH THE DEBRIEFING. (I think that in the US at least this is already known, I do not know how known it it in Other parts of the world, or how broadly by various entities affiliated with the US govt.) I really HATE to have to be this technical.
I have attempted as much as possible to use concrete and direct words. I RARELY, very RARELY will use in public figurative speech, metaphoric almost NEVER, especially when communicating literally in front of a Global audience of various ages and educational levels on the Internet. I would probably actually communicate IN THE SAME just as direct and, above all, CONCRETE manner, were I to be EVER speaking at an EXPERT CONFERENCE...because I really think it is ETHICALLY better and more appropriate to do so if one wishes to impart potentially NEW information or ideas or opinions, at the risk of one appearig to be a SIMPLETON or a SELF-PREOCCUPIED narcissist who only likes to do things their way, or just a poor communicator like someone who doesn't have a lot of general culture, etc.
I will also here opine, albeit admittedly off-topic, that I sincerely believe that someone who DOES NOT KNOW how to simplify one's message as much as possible cannot EVER be a good guide or a public educator, yet I, myself DO NOT consider myself talented or even desirous to be one of these. I actually feel like this is TOO MUCH work. When on a forum I just want to relax.
The only reason I posted this weirdo stuff here today was that I thought it was important to be heard at least by one person out there, who may be worried about stuff like the Abu Ghraib Stuff NOT happening again, also maybe for someone who wishes that no 10 year delay should ever have to go again in the hunt for someone like UbL.
DO NOT HURRY WITH THE DEBRIEFING. (I think that in the US at least this is already known, I do not know how known it it in Other parts of the world, or how broadly by various entities affiliated with the US govt.) I really HATE to have to be this technical.
I have attempted as much as possible to use concrete and direct words. I RARELY, very RARELY will use in public figurative speech, metaphoric almost NEVER, especially when communicating literally in front of a Global audience of various ages and educational levels on the Internet. I would probably actually communicate IN THE SAME just as direct and, above all, CONCRETE manner, were I to be EVER speaking at an EXPERT CONFERENCE...because I really think it is ETHICALLY better and more appropriate to do so if one wishes to impart potentially NEW information or ideas or opinions, at the risk of one appearig to be a SIMPLETON or a SELF-PREOCCUPIED narcissist who only likes to do things their way, or just a poor communicator like someone who doesn't have a lot of general culture, etc.
I will also here opine, albeit admittedly off-topic, that I sincerely believe that someone who DOES NOT KNOW how to simplify one's message as much as possible cannot EVER be a good guide or a public educator, yet I, myself DO NOT consider myself talented or even desirous to be one of these. I actually feel like this is TOO MUCH work. When on a forum I just want to relax.
The only reason I posted this weirdo stuff here today was that I thought it was important to be heard at least by one person out there, who may be worried about stuff like the Abu Ghraib Stuff NOT happening again, also maybe for someone who wishes that no 10 year delay should ever have to go again in the hunt for someone like UbL.
