DTop
Active member
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041110/ap_on_bi_ge/hydrogen_station
Do you think this signals the first step away from oil? Is hydrogen the way to go?
Is the US moving away from oil?
Do you think this signals the first step away from oil? Is hydrogen the way to go?
Italian Guy
Milforum Hitman
:shock: Light question indeed.
Well I don't think so. It might be the first step away from oil, but oil won't be finished too soon. The point is how to get supplies from off africa's West Coast. And from Russia, even though russia's is not as high a quality as MidEast's oil.
Well I don't think so. It might be the first step away from oil, but oil won't be finished too soon. The point is how to get supplies from off africa's West Coast. And from Russia, even though russia's is not as high a quality as MidEast's oil.
Italian Guy said:
It's the same oil as in the Middle East. Even most of the refineries are built by western oil companies. The only difference is just that the Russian fields are mostly equipped with out of date equipment which doesn't allow them to increase production similarly as the Saudis. The problem with Nigerian oil is that Nigeria is not a stable country right now.
There are several options available and it's my strong belief that it's in the interest of the world the sooner we switch away from our dependency to fossil fuels. There are several avenues of research available but I think that the hydrogen-powered fuel cells might be the most efficient way especially when cars are concerned. Electric-powered cars do not have the necessary range and the charging time makes unusable IMHO.
Italian Guy
Milforum Hitman
I bow to your knowledge and share the view that moving away from oil before we run out of supplies is a good thing. I'm just pretty skeptical on how entire economies such as US or Japan can be converted.
Oil is not just for transportation; oil is for paints, for plastics, for surgery tools, for everything.
Oil is not just for transportation; oil is for paints, for plastics, for surgery tools, for everything.
Italian Guy said:
You are very correct.
I think we will eventually develop alternate materials, as we did with bio-degradable plastics. I have faith, it didn't take that long for us to get rid of freon when we found out that it depletes the ozone.
The thing that worries me about oil is that in a few years we can expect a dramatic increase in oil-consumption, because the Indians and Chinese will soon want to have their own cars.
Italian Guy
Milforum Hitman
Yeah, but I was watching a show the other night and this expert in the field was saying that China and India ( our main concerns right now ) will be advantaged from a certain point of view. They (and we along with them ) will benefit from their being latecomers: they can develop new and more efficient technologies so as to not burn as much oil as we do now. In fact, I heard most US refineries still working today were built 40 years ago.
In short, the hope is that the Chinese can learn from our past mistakes. Or the world won't bear it I'm afraid.
In short, the hope is that the Chinese can learn from our past mistakes. Or the world won't bear it I'm afraid.
Duty Honor Country
Active member
I did a research paper on hydrogen fuel cells, and I believe that it is the technology of the future. Here is how it works in laymen terms
The hydrogen and oxygen are moved separately through the fuel cell. The oxygen and hydrogen are separated by a think membrane of material. This material is thin enough to excite the electron in the hydrogen atom. The material used use to be platinum, but I believe new materials are being tested to bring down the cost of fuel cells. At some point, the excited hydrogen electron rips apart and travels through a circuit. In a cars case, it is the electric motor. After traveling through the circuit, the electron meets back up with the hydrogen. The hydrogen combines with the oxygen to make water.
So you have a power source that uses hydrogen to make power and it's only byproducts is water and oxygen.
Also, Great Britain is leading the world in the use of hydrogen fuel cells. I believe London's bus system is totally ran by fuel cells. The london study found that after a curtain number of buses, the cost of maintaining buses with fuel cells becomes less than running gasoline powered buses. The mayor of London drank water from the tail pipe of one of the buses after riding in it to demonstrate that it was water.
The hydrogen and oxygen are moved separately through the fuel cell. The oxygen and hydrogen are separated by a think membrane of material. This material is thin enough to excite the electron in the hydrogen atom. The material used use to be platinum, but I believe new materials are being tested to bring down the cost of fuel cells. At some point, the excited hydrogen electron rips apart and travels through a circuit. In a cars case, it is the electric motor. After traveling through the circuit, the electron meets back up with the hydrogen. The hydrogen combines with the oxygen to make water.
So you have a power source that uses hydrogen to make power and it's only byproducts is water and oxygen.
Also, Great Britain is leading the world in the use of hydrogen fuel cells. I believe London's bus system is totally ran by fuel cells. The london study found that after a curtain number of buses, the cost of maintaining buses with fuel cells becomes less than running gasoline powered buses. The mayor of London drank water from the tail pipe of one of the buses after riding in it to demonstrate that it was water.
Italian Guy
Milforum Hitman
Wow now that's cool, bro 8)
Duty Honor Country
Active member
Italian Guy said:
glad you like it
There are limitations to fuel cells. As the article pointed out, there is only one hydrogen fuel station in the US. Also, fuel cell powered cars do not have the same acceleration that gas powered cars do. I know a few of my fast car loving adult male counterparts would not buy something like that. Fuel prices are going to have to be really high before hydrogen fuel technology to take off.
How high is something to be debated. I guess when people's buying habits are changed because of high fuel prices is when it is "that time." For now, Americans are still driving trucks and SUV's in record numbers. So $2.14 a gallon is not high enough...if you know what I mean. If gas was $3.50 a gallon, things may start to change.
DTop
Active member
I think the change will likely happen the same way change has always happened here. We changed from whale oil lamps to gas lamps and finally to electric lamps in our houses for example. We went from ice boxes to propane refrigerators to electric refrigerators.
It may come down to a matter of supply and demand eventually. There may come a day when gasoline powered cars are no longer manufactured and the ones that still remain will have to search far and wide for fuel relegating them to quaint antique status much like coal driven trains and horse drawn carriages are today. It will take time. But IMHO, it is an exciting prospect.
It may come down to a matter of supply and demand eventually. There may come a day when gasoline powered cars are no longer manufactured and the ones that still remain will have to search far and wide for fuel relegating them to quaint antique status much like coal driven trains and horse drawn carriages are today. It will take time. But IMHO, it is an exciting prospect.
Duty Honor Country
Active member
along with those changes, comes big changes in our society and the way we do things. I wonder what changes will come when we move away from oil as a main source of energy?
Duty Honor Country
Active member
Hegario said:
See we, as Americans, have been blessed with low gas prices since World War II. Europe was devastated by war and had to endure gasoline shortages. So the European society learned to live with high gas prices. Most European cars are much more efficient than American cars. While Europe was experiencing the gas crunch, America was being fueled by Texas. We got use to low gas prices and our society developed as such. Today, the US is starting to feel the pains that Europe experienced in World War II.
I agree. There is no need for a Hummer on the streets of a city
Japan and the US are both doing a pretty decent job as far as alternative fuel research goes for their cars. Japan and the US has also already developed race cars that use alternative fuels. The faster ones are hybrids. But I wouldn't be surprised that if in the near future we have supercars that don't use fossil fuels.
I'm all for moving away from oil. There are estimates that oil in the middle east will only be there for 200 years or so (estimates go higher and lower depending on who does it). It might seem long for us, since none of us will be around. But that's a short amount of time if we want to convert our entire society to something else.
I'm all for moving away from oil. There are estimates that oil in the middle east will only be there for 200 years or so (estimates go higher and lower depending on who does it). It might seem long for us, since none of us will be around. But that's a short amount of time if we want to convert our entire society to something else.
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
What's that oil alternative again? It's some kind of sludge... agh I can't remember.
Either way this is a step in the right direction.
Either way this is a step in the right direction.
Duty Honor Country
Active member
I found this article on the news wire that is related to hydrogen, It seems Isleand wants to be "oil free" by 2050.
Iceland's Hydrogen Buses Zip to Oil-Free Economy
By Alister Doyle, Environment Correspondent
REYKJAVIK, Iceland (Reuters) - Hydrogen, tested in buses from Amsterdam to Vancouver and used in the rockets of the U.S. space shuttle, is a clean power that promises to break dependence on oil and gas -- at least in Iceland.
"Sometimes I have to explain to passengers that it's just water vapor," the driver said of white clouds trailing after his bus along the streets of the capital, Reykjavik. "When it's very cold there's a lot of white steam."
With almost unlimited geothermal energy sizzling beneath its surface, Iceland has an official goal of making the country oil-free by shifting cars, buses, trucks and ships over to hydrogen by about 2050.
By then, in theory, the only oil used on the volcanic North Atlantic island will be in planes visiting Reykjavik airport.
Other countries, such as the United States, where President Bush is a strong backer of hydrogen, face a far tougher path.
READ MORE
Iceland's Hydrogen Buses Zip to Oil-Free Economy
By Alister Doyle, Environment Correspondent
REYKJAVIK, Iceland (Reuters) - Hydrogen, tested in buses from Amsterdam to Vancouver and used in the rockets of the U.S. space shuttle, is a clean power that promises to break dependence on oil and gas -- at least in Iceland.
"Sometimes I have to explain to passengers that it's just water vapor," the driver said of white clouds trailing after his bus along the streets of the capital, Reykjavik. "When it's very cold there's a lot of white steam."
With almost unlimited geothermal energy sizzling beneath its surface, Iceland has an official goal of making the country oil-free by shifting cars, buses, trucks and ships over to hydrogen by about 2050.
By then, in theory, the only oil used on the volcanic North Atlantic island will be in planes visiting Reykjavik airport.
Other countries, such as the United States, where President Bush is a strong backer of hydrogen, face a far tougher path.
READ MORE