How did the medieval Knights Templar influence Norway gunman?
Scarab-Seal-Master
New Member
Salutations to you, American.
First of all, I think it's quite easy to figure it out. The Templars protected europe from the growing spread of islam. Anders behring breivik saw himself as a hero amongst the indiginous people of europe, also fighting the growth of islam.
First of all, I think it's quite easy to figure it out. The Templars protected europe from the growing spread of islam. Anders behring breivik saw himself as a hero amongst the indiginous people of europe, also fighting the growth of islam.
roamsk
Active member
I would just like to comment that I personally have an uneasy feeling about possible political exploitation of the tragedy that happened in the Kingdom of Norway on July 22nd, 2011, which was a mass murderous terrorist style attack carried out by a criminal psychopathic individual of Norwegian descent.
I have already formulated the impression that Norwegians are some of the most altruistic persons I have ever met during my travels, but one cannot deny there is a degree of perhaps unavoidable national insularity in the general society of this small country which finds itself at the edge of this big and often stormy Atlantic Ocean.
I have personally already had enough of the various political or even journalistic organizations and even people who have appeared as listed in that terrorist criminal's "manuscript list", and all the ones who rush now to either anxiously dissociate themselves, or the ones who start "arguing back" with their own agendas, or even get their own "15 minutes" of fame because, quite realistically, no one even knew who they were before, and didn't even give a damn' who they were, nor are they significative in ANY way, (beyond obvious ongoing professional law-enforcement operations).
But this is maybe because I am NOT a "media junkie", and I mostly go to the media to get information, not more political "uproar", and/or even "propaganda", (although I understand that they have to sell issues too !), and I also admit for myself it is SO hard to actually GET information from the TONS of useless junk out there, especially since we are all bombarded at an unhealthy level, IMHO, with too much of it, wanted and unwanted, in this Internet age.
And when a tragedy strikes, I also go to the media, especially TV, for support, to listen what the actual current leaders (which I know are politicians, but are also human beings and should actually professionally and competently lead a support initiative for the general population of all constituencies), or even some more reputable leaders of opinion, (OK, including some better known real paper journal editors !), have to say, so I can get some example for myself.
(As an example, I will personally never forget Mayor Rudolph Giuliani of New York City, NY, in the first few moments after September 11, 2001. A consummate politician by nature, in that moment, he was NOT a politician, he transcended that. He was a true human being and a leader. And he reassurred me, as I was thousands of miles away anyway. One could, I assume, find that first broadcast from him on Youtube or in some video archive on the net.)
I will now give a short synopsis of early reactions from some better known International newspapers, so you can all see what journalistic perspectives are coming from outside of Norway:
* UK: The Guardian (center-left liberal): the gruesome tragedies from Oslo and Utøyea are truly shocking; it is important for all observers, (and, I add: commentators too !), to be as humble and objective as possible; to seek sociological or political explanations for this case is understandable, but first and foremost this is a case of psychopathy; (my evaluation: bravo ! for educational intent);
* Sweden: Dagens Nyheter (independent liberal): persons who are not apologists or propagandists of terrorism are not responsible when one criminally performs a terrorist activity in their name; yet, the mass-murder from Norway gives further basis for re-estimating the tone of the public discourse; speech has a meaning, and we are all responsible to hold discussions at a civilized level (my opinion: the Swedes, always the consummate diplomats of the North !);
* Denmark: Jyllands-Posten (center-right, the one with those prophet Muhammad cartoons, and some controversial stuff going on lately in regards to foreign immigrants in Denmark): Norway was struck with one of the greatest tragedies since WW II; but regardless of whether it was a "solo action", or an international terror attack (this was an early declaration), the answer is to protect the core principles of the constitutional democratic state of laws; (I interpreted this as an early warning against possible social unrest while the isituation was yet unclear);
* The French Republic: Le Monde (center-left): Norway is one of the best countries to live in; it is in this land that that mass-murderer grew up; it is in fact admirable that the government refuses to give up; it is not about cowering in fear though; in all of its earlier accidents Norway has remained true to itself; (this was a bit more complex, and I admit, I did not truly understand very well what they wanted to say, plus I didn't read the whole article, so I must admit I discounted their opinion, just because I didn't understand it);
* Germany: Die Welt (conservative ?): "terror" these days is first of all symbolic politics (my opinion: WRONG ! there is nothing "symbolic" about people lying dead or maimed just going about in the course of doing their jobs or leading their daily lives, and/or buildings destroyed by criminal psychopaths just for the purpose that they do not like someone else's politics, and/or they fear or are outright paranoid about civilization and enlightment, and/or hold prejudice against certain ethnic people or certain nations); the "goal" is to create such dramatic pictures in people's social subconscious, so as to thus create social unrest and ongoing instability; Norwegian modern propagand must not lend an ear to this; (my continued opinion: arrgh ! these Germans...actually more dangerous than I thought they were ! LOL ! just half-joking here ! OK, I admit you know some "big" words like "social subconscious", but, in my opinion, it is NOT right to use these kind of words, especially not in this context, without explaining what you actually mean, plus, let me tell you...I have noted your own confession, your own mindset, (way of thinking), that you are already thinking how to be exploiting this in unethical political propagandistic ways ! I am actually grateful I do not know German and I do not habitually read German newspapers so often, because I swear to God I would have gotten an ulcer by now ! Disclaimer: Most of what I know about Germany I learned from Mr. Spencer Tracy, in "Judgment at Nuremberg" !...and let me tell you all now, in this moment, Mr. Spencer Tracy looks more credible to me now than this Die Welt ! On top of this, because of you, Die Welt, now I find myself ethically obliged to actually try to find a Nuremberg based newspaper, and also start reading what Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung has to say !);
* a regional newspaper, The Scotsman (liberal): how can a modern society protect itself against such truly mad and meaningless violent actions ? The school massacre of Dunblane traumatised the whole of Scotland, and led to strong popular pressure to restrict the use to firearms; it is quite possible that the massacre of Norway may lead to similar consequences; (my opinion: practical as always, and trying to clarify, to open the way for the discussion of some concrete policy implementation, even if it is of just local, or regional interest, not "advice" for Norway, most certainly it wasn't that; bravo !)
----------
OK, I admit, I might have risked creating an off-topic diversion, but I am not trolling. I was sincerely attempting to put some things into perspective, define or clarify some things...as I still think that after a huge trauma, most people still need information first alongside support, clarification afterwards, and a bit later democratic and healthy political debate, not a barrage of meaningless emotional reactions from this whole world wide web of information. And I am starting to lean in evaluating Yahoo ! News as a bit too immature and sensationalistic for my personal taste, so this is why I personally do not even click on them that often ! Now when Google shall also fully implement the alternative to Facebook, and open up the "Google World News Service"...then I don't really know what I am going to do ! I think I'll just start watching Al-Jazeera like most serious top policy officials I know from the US are doing as well !
I have already formulated the impression that Norwegians are some of the most altruistic persons I have ever met during my travels, but one cannot deny there is a degree of perhaps unavoidable national insularity in the general society of this small country which finds itself at the edge of this big and often stormy Atlantic Ocean.
I have personally already had enough of the various political or even journalistic organizations and even people who have appeared as listed in that terrorist criminal's "manuscript list", and all the ones who rush now to either anxiously dissociate themselves, or the ones who start "arguing back" with their own agendas, or even get their own "15 minutes" of fame because, quite realistically, no one even knew who they were before, and didn't even give a damn' who they were, nor are they significative in ANY way, (beyond obvious ongoing professional law-enforcement operations).
But this is maybe because I am NOT a "media junkie", and I mostly go to the media to get information, not more political "uproar", and/or even "propaganda", (although I understand that they have to sell issues too !), and I also admit for myself it is SO hard to actually GET information from the TONS of useless junk out there, especially since we are all bombarded at an unhealthy level, IMHO, with too much of it, wanted and unwanted, in this Internet age.
And when a tragedy strikes, I also go to the media, especially TV, for support, to listen what the actual current leaders (which I know are politicians, but are also human beings and should actually professionally and competently lead a support initiative for the general population of all constituencies), or even some more reputable leaders of opinion, (OK, including some better known real paper journal editors !), have to say, so I can get some example for myself.
(As an example, I will personally never forget Mayor Rudolph Giuliani of New York City, NY, in the first few moments after September 11, 2001. A consummate politician by nature, in that moment, he was NOT a politician, he transcended that. He was a true human being and a leader. And he reassurred me, as I was thousands of miles away anyway. One could, I assume, find that first broadcast from him on Youtube or in some video archive on the net.)
I will now give a short synopsis of early reactions from some better known International newspapers, so you can all see what journalistic perspectives are coming from outside of Norway:
* UK: The Guardian (center-left liberal): the gruesome tragedies from Oslo and Utøyea are truly shocking; it is important for all observers, (and, I add: commentators too !), to be as humble and objective as possible; to seek sociological or political explanations for this case is understandable, but first and foremost this is a case of psychopathy; (my evaluation: bravo ! for educational intent);
* Sweden: Dagens Nyheter (independent liberal): persons who are not apologists or propagandists of terrorism are not responsible when one criminally performs a terrorist activity in their name; yet, the mass-murder from Norway gives further basis for re-estimating the tone of the public discourse; speech has a meaning, and we are all responsible to hold discussions at a civilized level (my opinion: the Swedes, always the consummate diplomats of the North !);
* Denmark: Jyllands-Posten (center-right, the one with those prophet Muhammad cartoons, and some controversial stuff going on lately in regards to foreign immigrants in Denmark): Norway was struck with one of the greatest tragedies since WW II; but regardless of whether it was a "solo action", or an international terror attack (this was an early declaration), the answer is to protect the core principles of the constitutional democratic state of laws; (I interpreted this as an early warning against possible social unrest while the isituation was yet unclear);
* The French Republic: Le Monde (center-left): Norway is one of the best countries to live in; it is in this land that that mass-murderer grew up; it is in fact admirable that the government refuses to give up; it is not about cowering in fear though; in all of its earlier accidents Norway has remained true to itself; (this was a bit more complex, and I admit, I did not truly understand very well what they wanted to say, plus I didn't read the whole article, so I must admit I discounted their opinion, just because I didn't understand it);
* Germany: Die Welt (conservative ?): "terror" these days is first of all symbolic politics (my opinion: WRONG ! there is nothing "symbolic" about people lying dead or maimed just going about in the course of doing their jobs or leading their daily lives, and/or buildings destroyed by criminal psychopaths just for the purpose that they do not like someone else's politics, and/or they fear or are outright paranoid about civilization and enlightment, and/or hold prejudice against certain ethnic people or certain nations); the "goal" is to create such dramatic pictures in people's social subconscious, so as to thus create social unrest and ongoing instability; Norwegian modern propagand must not lend an ear to this; (my continued opinion: arrgh ! these Germans...actually more dangerous than I thought they were ! LOL ! just half-joking here ! OK, I admit you know some "big" words like "social subconscious", but, in my opinion, it is NOT right to use these kind of words, especially not in this context, without explaining what you actually mean, plus, let me tell you...I have noted your own confession, your own mindset, (way of thinking), that you are already thinking how to be exploiting this in unethical political propagandistic ways ! I am actually grateful I do not know German and I do not habitually read German newspapers so often, because I swear to God I would have gotten an ulcer by now ! Disclaimer: Most of what I know about Germany I learned from Mr. Spencer Tracy, in "Judgment at Nuremberg" !...and let me tell you all now, in this moment, Mr. Spencer Tracy looks more credible to me now than this Die Welt ! On top of this, because of you, Die Welt, now I find myself ethically obliged to actually try to find a Nuremberg based newspaper, and also start reading what Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung has to say !);
* a regional newspaper, The Scotsman (liberal): how can a modern society protect itself against such truly mad and meaningless violent actions ? The school massacre of Dunblane traumatised the whole of Scotland, and led to strong popular pressure to restrict the use to firearms; it is quite possible that the massacre of Norway may lead to similar consequences; (my opinion: practical as always, and trying to clarify, to open the way for the discussion of some concrete policy implementation, even if it is of just local, or regional interest, not "advice" for Norway, most certainly it wasn't that; bravo !)
----------
OK, I admit, I might have risked creating an off-topic diversion, but I am not trolling. I was sincerely attempting to put some things into perspective, define or clarify some things...as I still think that after a huge trauma, most people still need information first alongside support, clarification afterwards, and a bit later democratic and healthy political debate, not a barrage of meaningless emotional reactions from this whole world wide web of information. And I am starting to lean in evaluating Yahoo ! News as a bit too immature and sensationalistic for my personal taste, so this is why I personally do not even click on them that often ! Now when Google shall also fully implement the alternative to Facebook, and open up the "Google World News Service"...then I don't really know what I am going to do ! I think I'll just start watching Al-Jazeera like most serious top policy officials I know from the US are doing as well !
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MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
Can I pose another option in all this, perhaps you are over thinking the event.
To quote several of the worlds great philosophers "sometimes **** happens" perhaps something we all should realise is that there are crazy people the world over and once in a while they make the headlines with these sorts of acts, New Zealand went through it with the Aramoana shootings, Australia with the Port Arthur killings, UK with the Dunblane killings and the US every year with some one going off their nut.
Basically I think perhaps we should accept sometimes these events will happen with no real rhyme or reason other than the guy with the gun had lost the plot and for all of our social policies and political legislating there is nothing we can do to prevent it.
To quote several of the worlds great philosophers "sometimes **** happens" perhaps something we all should realise is that there are crazy people the world over and once in a while they make the headlines with these sorts of acts, New Zealand went through it with the Aramoana shootings, Australia with the Port Arthur killings, UK with the Dunblane killings and the US every year with some one going off their nut.
Basically I think perhaps we should accept sometimes these events will happen with no real rhyme or reason other than the guy with the gun had lost the plot and for all of our social policies and political legislating there is nothing we can do to prevent it.
LeEnfield
Active member
Personally I blame Adam & Eve, for if they had taken up the proper birth control regime then would we have this problem. Lets face it we can blame any one or any thing for happening like this, yet it is all down to one mans warped ideas. If he was that worried about Islam in his country then why didn't he attack the Muslims rather than his own people. None of this make sense to the normal person and never will.
fredleander
Active member
Jan Guillou, a well-known Swedish author, has written this analysis on the massacre in Norway:
http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/kolumnister/janguillou/article13399930.ab
I am sure the Google translator can make it understandable (the text, anyway) for those not reading Swedish.
Fred
http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/kolumnister/janguillou/article13399930.ab
I am sure the Google translator can make it understandable (the text, anyway) for those not reading Swedish.
Fred
Scarab-Seal-Master
New Member
Roamsk, You're mistaken. Anders did work alone because he was a sleeper cell. BUT he was/is not alone. Atleast 12 high ranking members are still not in custody. And they are suppossed specialists in 4GW
I could see someone European trying to start a war between Europeans & the immigrants by doing something like this IF he thought the immigrants would be blamed for the attacks. Where he made no attempt to cover his identity, it unfathomable how he expected immigrants to be blamed, or for a war aganst them to occur.
84RFK
Active member
In Breivik's brain the bombing of the government quarter, and the massacre on Utøya, was the first shots fired in a "war" that would deal with (kill) the elements that supported third world immigration.
His plot was to do away with liberal governments, and reinstate some new regime that would deport everybody of "different culture" and religion.
If he was seeking some influence from historic "protectors" of a Christian Europe, he would have to turn to Hungarian horsemen and Austrian noble's of the 15th and 16th century.
The Knights Templar thing is merely beccause they were a Christian and mystic order of knights.
Something pure and holy in a world of chaos I suppose.
Wether or not this chaos existed only in Breivik's mind....I'm not competent to be the judge of that!
So were back to the dismissed comments in the other Thread, that the children were specificly targeted because of Party affiliation, other than they might not be children of the Leadership, per se.
84RFK
Active member
In the cynical logic of Breivik, Utøya was the perfect target.
The only summer camp for a political youth organisation on the left side (the Labour Party had some communsit afiliations in the 1920's) with a location that made it difficult for the victims to escape.
In short: Utøya was a cost-efficient target in Breiviks mind.
Some of those kids would have made up the next generation of politicians, allthough they may have found another political belief at that moment.
Others would probably have grown tired of politics, and turned to other interests.
But since the massacre on Utøya, the different political youth organisastions, on all political block's, has experienced an increased interest from youths who have suddenly gained an interest in politics just beccause of the massacre.
The Prime Minister called for more democracy, and it seems like the youngsters have made a response to that.
So in many ways you could say that Breivik's plan backfired miserably.
Nothing like trapped, helpless victims. Just shows how nuts he was to think a Norwegian Conservative attacking Liberals would somehow cause action against Liberals or Muslim immigrants.
roamsk
Active member
Ah, George, you provocateur, you..."someone European" ?! (I am permitting myself this familiatity with you because you are an active contributor to that great page "This Day in Military History"). Now, because YOU "coward" didn't actually dare to say it, it is compulsive I who feel compelled to remind all Geography students that the natural boundary of Europe extends up to the Ural Mountain Range, and, yes, I admit, some provocateurs are right sometimes, yet I hasten to clarify that not all not all of the times...or was it "not all all of the times" ?...I admit, I'm in such a big Logic related FOG sometimes ! That means: "please take all I say with one, preferably even two grains of salt".
@ Mr. Medvedev & Mr. Putin, if you absolutely must, then I guess it may be OK to send this Bulgarian assassin after me ! Although you shouldn't feel compelled to...after all...we are in the 21st century, and there is no such thing as "bad" publicity !