Douglas Bader RAF - WW11

Bader

Douglas Bader was not the nice chap as depicted by Kenneth More in the film Reach for the sky. Although I admire his courage, tenacity and his ability to overcome official adversity to get into the air again, the man was extremely arrogant and obnoxious.

His biggest shameful act in my opinion was his part along with Trafford Leigh-Mallory both of 12 Group in the firing of Sir Hugh Dowding over his handling of the Battle of Britain. Leigh-Mallory and Bader were almost fanatical in their belief of the “Big Wings.” Keith Parks of 11 Group and Hugh Dowding handling of the Battle was absolutely correct as history shows, while the Big Wing theory in effect was a complete and utter failure.

While 11 Group were in the air, 12 group were requested to protect 11 Group airfields from attack, on almost every occasion they do failed to do so. Leigh-Mallory even went as far to complain about an 11 Group aircraft chasing and shooting down a German aircraft in his airspace.

I am not a fan of either Bader nor Leigh-Mallory.
 
BritinAfrica said:
Douglas Bader was not the nice chap as depicted by Kenneth More in the film Reach for the sky. Although I admire his courage, tenacity and his ability to overcome official adversity to get into the air again, the man was extremely arrogant and obnoxious.

His biggest shameful act in my opinion was his part along with Trafford Leigh-Mallory both of 12 Group in the firing of Sir Hugh Dowding over his handling of the Battle of Britain. Leigh-Mallory and Bader were almost fanatical in their belief of the “Big Wings.” Keith Parks of 11 Group and Hugh Dowding handling of the Battle was absolutely correct as history shows, while the Big Wing theory in effect was a complete and utter failure.

While 11 Group were in the air, 12 group were requested to protect 11 Group airfields from attack, on almost every occasion they do failed to do so. Leigh-Mallory even went as far to complain about an 11 Group aircraft chasing and shooting down a German aircraft in his airspace.

I am not a fan of either Bader nor Leigh-Mallory.
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That is very interesting do you know where that is quoted from I would love to get more information..
 
BritinAfrica said:
Douglas Bader was not the nice chap as depicted by Kenneth More in the film Reach for the sky. Although I admire his courage, tenacity and his ability to overcome official adversity to get into the air again, the man was extremely arrogant and obnoxious.

His biggest shameful act in my opinion was his part along with Trafford Leigh-Mallory both of 12 Group in the firing of Sir Hugh Dowding over his handling of the Battle of Britain. Leigh-Mallory and Bader were almost fanatical in their belief of the “Big Wings.” Keith Parks of 11 Group and Hugh Dowding handling of the Battle was absolutely correct as history shows, while the Big Wing theory in effect was a complete and utter failure.

While 11 Group were in the air, 12 group were requested to protect 11 Group airfields from attack, on almost every occasion they do failed to do so. Leigh-Mallory even went as far to complain about an 11 Group aircraft chasing and shooting down a German aircraft in his airspace.

I am not a fan of either Bader nor Leigh-Mallory.
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I am with you there. They did the real dirty on Sir Hugh and Keith Parks.
Those two men worked hard and did alot to keep RAF Fighter Command opperational during the Battle of Britain, then they got pooed on from a great height. Their main problem was they were not "YES MEN". Churchill felt humiliated by Dowding because he refused to send more squadrons to France before its collapse so his card was marked from then on.
 
Until his death (although he did mellow a little) Bader was arrogant and obnoxious as ever. During a Battle of Britain open day on our station many many years ago a few Battle of Britain pilots showed up, Bader was one of them.

Hugh Dowding and Keith Parks will be forever in the hearts and minds of those (who are left) who fought in the Battle.

M1A2 said:
That is very interesting do you know where that is quoted from I would love to get more information..
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There is a huge number of sites that will give you the full story and in more detail. A good place to start would be to watch the Battle of Britain movie, its quite factual. When Sir Hugh Dowding watched the movie before it went on public showing, he had tears running down his cheeks.

When the movie was made a lot of the older generation got extremely upset and highly annoyed seeing German bombers flying over London again. One of my dads workmates said, "I thought we beat those bastards years ago!" I was serving in the Far East when the movie was made, I wish I had been in UK to watch the mock dog fights.
 
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I remember reading that during the filming of "The Battle of Britain" he was invited to get into the cockpit of a Spitfire. Someone went to help him but Bob Stanford-Tuck pulled them back saying it was the best way to get a smack in the face off of him!
Its true he went through alot and has to be admired for his courage and tenacity, but alot of people say he was a right old git!
As a POW he wound the Germans up so much that fellow prisoners started to get the hump as they were being punished too for his behaviour.
 
Trooper1854 said:
I remember reading that during the filming of "The Battle of Britain" he was invited to get into the cockpit of a Spitfire. Someone went to help him but Bob Stanford-Tuck pulled them back saying it was the best way to get a smack in the face off of him!
Its true he went through alot and has to be admired for his courage and tenacity, but alot of people say he was a right old git!
As a POW he wound the Germans up so much that fellow prisoners started to get the hump as they were being punished too for his behaviour.
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Stanford Tuck was a gentleman so in fact was Adolf Galland.

Many of his fellow POW's hated Bader for his goon baiting, its a wonder no one died because of his antics.
 
BritinAfrica said:
Stanford Tuck was a gentleman so in fact was Adolf Galland.

Many of his fellow POW's hated Bader for his goon baiting, its a wonder no one died because of his antics.
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Galland did alot for Bader and Stanford-Tuck when they were POWs.
When the roles were reversed, Bob remebered this but Bader did nothing.
Galland and Bob became close friends after the war and used to go hunting together. In an interview they were asked "What do you shoot?" Bob answered "Anything that moves. After doing it for a living its a hard habit to get out of!":lol:
 
1. A person who looses a limb or faculty generally become eccentric. That is human, and must be understood.

2. As a child I had heard Douglas give a talk on his exploits in person. He had also obliged us with his autographs. As far as I remember we kids were all moved. Douglas Badar personified the human will to overcome extreme adversity. Great guy, I thought.
 
There are numerous stories surrounding famous, brave people from numerous wars.
Because somebody is brave and corageous and has overcome adversity it doesn't mean they are a likeable person.
When these people have performed their act of bravery, the PR machine swings into action and they are not going to say that the individual is "very brave but has a flawed personality"
I live very close to a lot of former USAAF 8th Air Force Bases.
The nearest is Thurleigh where the 306th Bomb Group were based.
They have the distinction, among many others, of having the first Congessional Medal of Honour awarded to an enlisted man.
He performed an incredible act of bravery very early on in his service, saving the lives of his crew but, he was a right royal pain.
Before the event, and after, he was on charges for insubordination, drunkeness and various other crimes. In the end, they sent him back to the USA because they were fed up with his behaviour.
A brave man, but not a perfect one, but then, who is?
I think alot of people have grown up with the stories of these brave people and virtually hero worshipped them. As time moves on, they die, information about them comes to light that shows them as "Ordinary Humans" and not "Super Humans" people feel shocked and almost let down.
I grew up thinking Guy Gibson VC was the greatest war hero ever.
This was based on seeing the film "The Dam Busters" and the portrayal of him by Richard Todd.
When the stories of him started coming out, about him being a martinet, a snob, and even a womaniser, I was almost crestfallen. But, he was still a brave man. At 24 years of age, he led a very dangerous mission and put his life on the line repeatedly.
John Chard VC, commanding officer of Rorkes Drift was described as a "Most useless and lazy individual" by his commanding officer and others. But he still was a very brave man.
Douglas Bader was an incredible man. He achieved then what few people could do now. He was not a nice person, he was arrogant, and did not care for anyone who did not share his views. He got what he wanted when he wanted. Maybe thats why he achieved what he did. Maybe a "nice guy" would never have done what he did.
My short time in the Army taught me that nice people are not always the best leaders. I was either scared of or dispised all the RSMs I came into contact with. The last Adjudant I had dealings with was lucky not to have been "fragged"!
I just think that people want their Heroes to be nice people who kiss babies and stroke kittens and when they are shown to be ordinary human beings with the flaws that come with that position, it is a great disapointment.
 
My last CO in the TA was lucky I didn't park a 10 tonner on his head. I still regret to this day that I didn't put in a redress against him.

The RAF SWO (Station Warrant Officer RAF equivalent to an RSM) I had on my last operation station never walked anywhere, he marched with his pace stick under his arm shouting at everyone he came across (including officers). I was refuelling Lightnings when he marched up to me, halted and shouted "WHERE'S YOUR BERET???" I explained that station orders state that berets or any head gear are not to be worn in case they get sucked into aircraft engines. He sniffed and marched off to find his next victim.
 
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BritinAfrica said:
My last CO in the TA was lucky I didn't park a 10 tonner on his head. I still regret to this day that I didn't put in a redress against him.

The RAF SWO (Station Warrant Officer RAF equivalent to an RSM) I had on my last operation station never walked anywhere, he marched with his pace stick under his arm shouting at everyone he came across (including officers). I was refuelling Lightnings when he marched up to me, halted and shouted "WHERE'S YOUR BERET???" I explained that station orders state that berets or any head gear are not to be worn in case they get sucked into aircraft engines. He sniffed and marched off to find his next victim.
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I knew a guy who told a Story of his RSM when he was in 2 Para that charged a man for being "Idle whilst parachuting!".
The Best RSM I ever encountered was from what was the Royal Irish Rangers. He was RSM at a training centre where I did an instructors course. He was tough as boot leather, fair, immaculate turn out and had a cracking sense of humour. Definately a role model.
 
BritinAfrica said:
I can well believe that.
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Another story was that the same RSM had a bicycle put in the guard room for "Leaning Idly against the wall"! But I think this was a bit of Lamp Swinging!
I had a CSM I would have loved to have shot.
Lazy, liar, two faced, thick as two short planks. Shouted you down if you came up with an idea he didn't like, then went running to the CO with the same idea and got the praise. When we converted from SLR to SA80, he made such a pigs ear of the training, he had to be found "alternative duties"
 
Trooper1854 said:
Another story was that the same RSM had a bicycle put in the guard room for "Leaning Idly against the wall"! But I think this was a bit of Lamp Swinging!
I had a CSM I would have loved to have shot.
Lazy, liar, two faced, thick as two short planks. Shouted you down if you came up with an idea he didn't like, then went running to the CO with the same idea and got the praise. When we converted from SLR to SA80, he made such a pigs ear of the training, he had to be found "alternative duties"
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Thank God I was never issued the SA80.
 
Trooper1854 said:
We called it the LEPPER. It was grenn and bits kept falling off it.
Apparently its a pretty awesome weapon now, since the bugs have been ironed out.
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The thing I don't like about it, a man cannot shoot off the left shoulder around cover, neither do I like the position of the magazine. However, as long as its turned out to be a good rifle and the troops like it, then good oh.
 
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