Could Germany have won Battle of Britain with more subs?
GuyontheRight
Active member
No, Hitler was never in a position where he could have launched Sea Lion in favorable conditions. More submarines would only prolonged the timetables, and by that time Hitler would have been to frustrated and turned back towards Russia.
Doppleganger
Active member
Hitler was always going to attack the USSR regardless of whether Sealion had been launched or not. I don't think twice the number of subs would have made that any likelier myself.
Young Winston
Banned
No! Too many other variables. Some already mentioned in the preceeding posts.
Maybe the topic should read "Could Germany have won the Battle of the Atlantic with more subs". :idea:
Maybe the topic should read "Could Germany have won the Battle of the Atlantic with more subs". :idea:
Mark Conley
Active member
the real problem was that even with twice the subs..you still only had the same amount of targets and for the first two years america was neutral and supposedly not targets.
course..after america entered the war with the fact that germany was twice as active..would have only speeded up the efforts to fight the subs.
My opinion: no , not in the long run
course..after america entered the war with the fact that germany was twice as active..would have only speeded up the efforts to fight the subs.
My opinion: no , not in the long run
http://www.uboat.net/
This is an excellent site regarding the whole U-boat war and it includes a lot of articles, bios and pictures from the era.
IMHO The war could've dragged on a whole lot longer if Dönitz had been able to start the war with the 300 subs he was hoping for. I don't think you are quite aware of how close to victory the Kriegsmarine actually was. More ships were sunk than built for a considerable time.
EDIT: Just a slight addition. October 31st was actually the 63rd anniversary of the first major sinking of an American warship in WW2. On October 31st 1941 the Reuben James was torpedoed by U-552 and sank with the loss of 115 men.
This is an excellent site regarding the whole U-boat war and it includes a lot of articles, bios and pictures from the era.
IMHO The war could've dragged on a whole lot longer if Dönitz had been able to start the war with the 300 subs he was hoping for. I don't think you are quite aware of how close to victory the Kriegsmarine actually was. More ships were sunk than built for a considerable time.
EDIT: Just a slight addition. October 31st was actually the 63rd anniversary of the first major sinking of an American warship in WW2. On October 31st 1941 the Reuben James was torpedoed by U-552 and sank with the loss of 115 men.
Doppleganger
Active member
Hegario said:
Yes the Wolfpack did very well for a while and did a great deal of disruption to Allied shipping lanes. BTW just to mention that Germany began WW2 with Grand Admiral Erich Raeder in command of the Kriegsmarine and he really pressed for more U-Boats than was provided. Dönitz got promoted when Hitler dismissed Raeder in 1943.
godofthunder9010
Active member
Incidentally, Raeder was promised by Hitler that he would not need to worry about having to confront the Royal Navy until 1945. The naval campaign in the Atlantic might have been very different if that promise had held.
It is interesting to note that the Royal Navy was certainly scared of the Wolfpacks at that stage of the game. Had the lucky shot on the Bismarck not occurred, the Royal Navy would likely have broken off pursuit for fear of U-boats and the Luftwaffe. Still, if we're talking about an attempt at Sea Lion, I think the RN gets a lot braver when trying to save Britain from invasion.
Britain was well aware of U-boats and their capabilities, and frankly I doubt they'd have done very well at trying to escort an amphibious invasion force -- not exactly the U-boat's specialty. This would have more likely been a complete disaster. Nobody fully knew it at the time, but the Luftwaffe (and air power in general) was much more dangerous to the Royal Navy than anything else. Because nobody knew it, Germany wouldn't have launched Sea Lion even if they HAD destroyed the RAF.
It is interesting to note that the Royal Navy was certainly scared of the Wolfpacks at that stage of the game. Had the lucky shot on the Bismarck not occurred, the Royal Navy would likely have broken off pursuit for fear of U-boats and the Luftwaffe. Still, if we're talking about an attempt at Sea Lion, I think the RN gets a lot braver when trying to save Britain from invasion.
Britain was well aware of U-boats and their capabilities, and frankly I doubt they'd have done very well at trying to escort an amphibious invasion force -- not exactly the U-boat's specialty. This would have more likely been a complete disaster. Nobody fully knew it at the time, but the Luftwaffe (and air power in general) was much more dangerous to the Royal Navy than anything else. Because nobody knew it, Germany wouldn't have launched Sea Lion even if they HAD destroyed the RAF.
AussieNick
Forum Digger
I think you'll find that the subs weren't the huge problem they are made out to be. My grandfather (Royal Merchent Navy) who was in the Atlantic from '39 to '43 till his convoy changed routes, said that they felt under much greater threat from air attack, especially long range aircraft like the Focke Wulf Condor.
godofthunder9010
Active member
Some mariners creditted the a certain defect of the Liberty Ships to the Wolfpacks. Due to it being welded and not rivetted, there was a tendency for them run into catastrophe when encountering a sudden change in water temperature and cold water in general. They would split in half at the speed of sound (thusly making quite a lot of racket) and go straight to the bottom. I believe that the first several times that happened, they thought it might have been a kill by a U-boat. They did figure it out of course ... even added a reinforcing steel belt to stop it later on in the war.
One of the Wolfpacks' greatest assets was the fear they inspired. Fear is a powerful tool.
Anyways, the biggest problem with the U-boats trying to play at being main battle seacraft is that, in a protracted battle, they lose their greatest advantage -- stealth. For sneak attacks on smaller attack groups, Wolfpacks performed quite well. Enmasse vs the enormous Royal Navy enmasse, I don't think the U-boats stood a chance.
One of the Wolfpacks' greatest assets was the fear they inspired. Fear is a powerful tool.
Anyways, the biggest problem with the U-boats trying to play at being main battle seacraft is that, in a protracted battle, they lose their greatest advantage -- stealth. For sneak attacks on smaller attack groups, Wolfpacks performed quite well. Enmasse vs the enormous Royal Navy enmasse, I don't think the U-boats stood a chance.
Battle of Britain
Interestingly, the Battle of Britain never reached its completion thanks to the efforts of the RAF. Hitler's "Battle of Britain" called for an air campaign followed by the seaborne phase. Since the latter never materialized, the need for additional submarines to support the amphibious force vanished. If Sea Lion did go forward, additional U-Boats would have helped provide a better screen for the ships carrying the invasion force.
Patrick
Interestingly, the Battle of Britain never reached its completion thanks to the efforts of the RAF. Hitler's "Battle of Britain" called for an air campaign followed by the seaborne phase. Since the latter never materialized, the need for additional submarines to support the amphibious force vanished. If Sea Lion did go forward, additional U-Boats would have helped provide a better screen for the ships carrying the invasion force.
Patrick
redcoat
Active member
Re: Battle of Britain
While its possible that the U-boats may have been able to get 1 or 2 lucky hits if they fired large spreads against the fleet, there is no way they could have sunk or damaged enough to seriously effect the actions of the RN no matter how many U-Boats the Germans had.
It should be noted that in the 1940 time- frame that its was almost impossible for a submerged submarine to obtain a firing solution on any ship which was travelling at high speed (+20 knots) and zig-zaging. Which is exactly what any fleet the RN would have sent against Sealow would have been doing.Patrick said:
While its possible that the U-boats may have been able to get 1 or 2 lucky hits if they fired large spreads against the fleet, there is no way they could have sunk or damaged enough to seriously effect the actions of the RN no matter how many U-Boats the Germans had.
Sea Lion
In fact, the U-boats were enjoying increased success during the autumn of 1940. It was the beginning of what U-boat crewmen called the "Happy Time". During 1940 alone, 2,373,070 merchant tonnage was lost. This was achieved by an average of only 21 U-boats at sea at any one time. In September 1940, U-boats intercepted two convoys off the coast of Ireland and sank 16 ships. The following month saw what would prove to be the single most successful U-boat operation of the war, when a pack of 12 boats, in a four -night operation, sank 32 merchant ships of a total 154,661 tons. This all ocurrred in 1940.
Therefore, it is plausible to conclude that additional U-boats for Sea Lion (if it had ocurred) would have had a greater impact in favor of the Germans.
Patrick
In fact, the U-boats were enjoying increased success during the autumn of 1940. It was the beginning of what U-boat crewmen called the "Happy Time". During 1940 alone, 2,373,070 merchant tonnage was lost. This was achieved by an average of only 21 U-boats at sea at any one time. In September 1940, U-boats intercepted two convoys off the coast of Ireland and sank 16 ships. The following month saw what would prove to be the single most successful U-boat operation of the war, when a pack of 12 boats, in a four -night operation, sank 32 merchant ships of a total 154,661 tons. This all ocurrred in 1940.
Therefore, it is plausible to conclude that additional U-boats for Sea Lion (if it had ocurred) would have had a greater impact in favor of the Germans.
Patrick
redcoat
Active member
Re: Sea Lion
When the invasion scare ended and the destroyers were returned to normal duties, the 'Happy Time' soon came to an end.
No, there is a great deal of difference between a slow merchant ship and a fast moving warship, and the major reason for the U-boat success was the fact of the RN removing a large amount of destroyers ( 50+)off convoy duty and on to invasion alert.Patrick said:
When the invasion scare ended and the destroyers were returned to normal duties, the 'Happy Time' soon came to an end.
Peterminator
Active member
while sea lion wouldn't have been a sucess,if hitler build more u-boats
he could have starved britain and then invade it under favorable conditions or more likely they would have surrendered(churchill would have had to be overthrown)
he could have starved britain and then invade it under favorable conditions or more likely they would have surrendered(churchill would have had to be overthrown)
LeEnfield
Active member
Operation Sea Lion depended on control of the air, the Germans had not been able at that stage of the war to move their U Boat arm into the French Ports. So it did not affect the Battle For Britain, once Hitler had lost the Air Battle his interest moved East and away from Britain. The Battle of the Atlantic was still a close run thing and there are many ifs and buts to the whole thing.