Will depleted uranium bullets be ever used. - Page 2




View Poll Results :Would deplete uranium bullets be effective?
yes, its what we need 7 28.00%
no, no its overkill 18 72.00%
Voters: 25. You may not vote on this poll

 
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June 8th, 2005  
jackehammond
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hicks
The Apaches used them in Desert Storm.

It's just too dangerous to use them in every type of weapon. The bullet itself isn't what does the most damage to an indivdual, it's breathing in the powder that is created after impact.
Dear Member,

The Apache did not use any DU munitions (the A-10A Warthawg did). The AP round for the Apache's 30mm cannon (ie totally different medium velocity round than from the 30mm high velocity round of the A-10A) is a HEAT round that uses some kind of technology (trumpet cone liner maybe) to offset the spinning which degrades the penetration effect of shape charges (ie HEAT).

DU is super heavy. And as soon as any so called powder is formed it sink right into the ground. Also when it impacts a target the powder is contained inside the vehicle. It is hard to breath in as it is not in a powder form that floats in the air like most people think of powder.

During NATO and other European countries intervention in Kosovo there was concern about DU. Italy and Switzerland sent independent doctors and scientists to Kosovo to study the problem (ie some soldiers were getting cancer) and they stated there was a greater danger of snakebites than DU poisoning. The problem was that Italian soldiers were operating around old factories where batteries had been made.

Finally, DU is a heavy metal. The danger from it is no more than lead or tungsten projectiles and no less. Today there are a number of US Army soldiers (ie some now retired) who have DU particles under their skin from a friendly fire incident and are suffering no ill effects.

Jack E. Hammond

BTW> When you fly on an airliner you are on an aircraft that has DU on it. It is used for counter weight on airliners to offset fuel tanks as they empty.
June 8th, 2005  
hicks
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackehammond
The Apache did not use any DU munitions (the A-10A Warthawg did). The AP round for the Apache's 30mm cannon (ie totally different medium velocity round than from the 30mm high velocity round of the A-10A) is a HEAT round that uses some kind of technology (trumpet cone liner maybe) to offset the spinning which degrades the penetration effect of shape charges (ie HEAT).

DU is super heavy. And as soon as any so called powder is formed it sink right into the ground. Also when it impacts a target the powder is contained inside the vehicle. It is hard to breath in as it is not in a powder form that floats in the air like most people think of powder.
This is not true. I have been through the Army's Nuclear, Biological and Chemical Warfar school and unless their information is not accurate, the Apaches did us DU rounds.

Apache's used it all over the place, and they even showed up a map of everywhere DU was used. Contained in the presentation were pictures of vehicles which had been destroyed by DU rounds from the Apache. The white powder is heavy, but does not sink into the ground by itself. It is impposible to sink through another object, thus making it impossible to sink through sand particles and roads unless overturned by another force.

The DU powder is also not contained inside the vehicle alone. The force of the explosion pushes the powder into the air, and when it settles, you have the powder on and around the target.

The largest problem was people handling the vehicles and targets after DU rounds were used and then not washing their hands properly. Thus, they ingested the powder.

A HEAT round is simply a High Explosive Anti-tank round.
June 9th, 2005  
Missileer
 
 
Back to the LOSAT program. I work for the company that partnered with Lockmart and have been on the LOSAT program since 1999. I have been at some munitions tests and the spike we dug out of a hill at White Sands was DU. I do not doubt that your birds have "spikes" made of a different alloy but I assure you that when the program goes to field, which I don't think will happen, the penetrators will be DU. I was on the first program when the Bradley was supposed to be the platform. Even though I was involved in the electronics design and targeting systems, I learned quite a lot about the tests and trials of the missile itself. DU is a very political problem right now but I can tell you that there is no replacement material close to the successful properties of DU.
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June 9th, 2005  
hicks
 
Well, the Army is not funding the LOSAT, so Lockheed Martin is taking back all of the fire units we have and our unit is being deactivated.

Testing the LOSAT was our primary mission.

I was the first soldier to fire the missile both remotely and inside the cab. I have spent many months at White Sands and was there as a section leader for the LUT last Spring. None of the penetrator rods have had DU in them thus far in the missiles we've fired. But who knows what they'll use in them if the Army picks the program back up.

It's a shame to see the program go away.
June 9th, 2005  
jackehammond
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hicks
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackehammond
The Apache did not use any DU munitions (the A-10A Warthawg did). The AP round for the Apache's 30mm cannon (ie totally different medium velocity round than from the 30mm high velocity round of the A-10A) is a HEAT round that uses some kind of technology (trumpet cone liner maybe) to offset the spinning which degrades the penetration effect of shape charges (ie HEAT).

DU is super heavy. And as soon as any so called powder is formed it sink right into the ground. Also when it impacts a target the powder is contained inside the vehicle. It is hard to breath in as it is not in a powder form that floats in the air like most people think of powder.
This is not true. I have been through the Army's Nuclear, Biological and Chemical Warfar school and unless their information is not accurate, the Apaches did us DU rounds.

Apache's used it all over the place, and they even showed up a map of everywhere DU was used. Contained in the presentation were pictures of vehicles which had been destroyed by DU rounds from the Apache. The white powder is heavy, but does not sink into the ground by itself. It is impposible to sink through another object, thus making it impossible to sink through sand particles and roads unless overturned by another force.

The DU powder is also not contained inside the vehicle alone. The force of the explosion pushes the powder into the air, and when it settles, you have the powder on and around the target.

The largest problem was people handling the vehicles and targets after DU rounds were used and then not washing their hands properly. Thus, they ingested the powder.

A HEAT round is simply a High Explosive Anti-tank round.
Dear Member,

How do I handle this situation. My information came from the project manager in 1993-96 (a US Army Colonel by the name of David Dodge) of the Abrams tank at Ft Knox and from the manufactures at various arms shows. Also the part about that the 30mm Chain Cannon on the Apache does not use DU rounds (ie the velocity is not that great as it fires the same round as use by the NATO European allies in their fighters and HE content is more important than MV). The information below is as of 2003.
Note the middle round. It is the one with AP ability. It has a trumpet shaped shape charge liner to reduce the effects of spinning on the penetration stream.



I run across this all the time. For example I am told by many in uniform (ie it is even stated in old Marine manuals on the M72 LAW) that HEAT rounds burn through armor. They don't. A HEAT round is the designation that the US Army gives. It is a lot shorter than HESCAT (High Explosive Shape Charge Antitank).

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I know you will now come back with "I was there." etc. But as one officer told me "Jack, I don't know how these stories get started. Killing them with a wooden stake might help!"

Finally, the reason that the US Army will no longer consider DU for AP rounds is the same reason that the US Navy is no longer using DU for its 20mm round used by the Phalanx antishipping missile cannon. The price of tungsten has dropped dramatically.

Jack E. Hammond

NOTE> I have a file from 1995 when the subject was discussed on Compuserves Military Forum (ie at that time it was about the only game on the block for military forums and it has a lot of active duty and program managers and at that time CS demanded a real name and verification). It is interesting. If you check with TRADOC and Ft Knox armored vehicle manager today, I will bet he can recongnize or even knows many of he persons in that discussion thread.

http://www.geocities.com/hybenamon/du.txt
June 9th, 2005  
Missileer
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hicks

It's a shame to see the program go away.
Especially bad for us because of all the design time, electronic, software, and optical development. All that's left of the team is myself, a PM, one tech, and one EE. Everyone else, about 30 people, have gone to other companies or reassigned within.
June 9th, 2005  
hicks
 
So, do you know Pat Coman?

He left the program a little over a year ago to move onto something else. What about Amos Hooker, Jim Reid, Gary Montgomery?

They're all great guys.

I'm sure Lockheed Martin will put the system in a warehouse and keep it in storage until the war is over and then try to reintroduce it with possible the CKEM missile instead.

I know if we weren't at war, they would have funded the program. I mean, who wouldn't want that awesome fire power?
June 9th, 2005  
Missileer
 
 
I met most of them but I don't recall names very well. I know the guy who seemed to be in charge was a tall slender fellow who was a heavy smoker and drove a Mini. There was a younger black Engineer who helped me a lot. There was an older Engineer who was pretty verbose but extremely intelligent. I think he said he was an ex-pilot but I'm not sure which war. There were two guys who seemed to be in charge of the hoist and they were union so I had to wait for them to pull the system many times. All great guys. Was Pat Cowman the program manager? The guy I met was in an office in the NW corner of the LOSAT building.
June 9th, 2005  
hicks
 
No, I don't think Pat Coman was the project manager. Most of them, that I know have have been Colonels in the Army.

But he was pretty high up on the list with the design.
June 10th, 2005  
Missileer
 
 
I have some schematics and test instructions with several names written down. I was tasked to introduce faults into the system and see if the software could find them via BIT tests. The customer from Redstone looked on and evaled the tests and then went back to Alabama after a few days of that nonsense. That was about two years ago and I have been pulled back to make changes to the hardware several times but not recently. When I mentioned a PM, I meant the civilian side of the project. We call the stud duck in charge program manager but that is actually an officer attached to Pentagon brass. Somehow, MICOM fits into the design side and I've been to many arsenals and fort wherever to interface with those types. Right now it's Picatinny and Fort Hood. I liked Ft. Greely, Alaska where I was given a room in BOQ for a couple of days. Across the hall was the Female officers, I will never get used to that. Anyhow, I'm off topic severely.