Why not have elite forces for machines like tanks and jets?
WarMachine
Active member
So are you guys saying this is unrealistic, or just plain foolish.
Kozzy Mozzy
Active member
It is unrealistic. Everything you people are describing is too expensive for a nation to maintain.
WarMachine
Active member
No, that's not what i'm saying. They're good, of course they are, there's not been one tank lost in iraq so far, not completely. I'm saying that smaller more specialized units could perform some missions better than a standard battlegroup. Like how they use navy seals to blow up a strategic bridge rather than have the marines go and try to take it and sustain many casualties.
Kozzy Mozzy
Active member
WarMachine said:
Yeah there have been plenty of tanks lost in Iraq.
Shadowalker
Active member
Its too expensive to have different types of tanks for different missions. Its easier to have just 1. If you want a special mission you leave it to special forces. I think possibly grouping the more experienced personnel into groups could provide more specialised units, but then you lose out on the younger personnel gaining the experience.
In jets you do already have fairly specialised units. F-22, eurofighter, rafale, F-117 etc. are flown by the best pilots and do the most challenging missions.
In jets you do already have fairly specialised units. F-22, eurofighter, rafale, F-117 etc. are flown by the best pilots and do the most challenging missions.
WarMachine
Active member
I'm beginning to see that elite armored units aren't realsitic unless you're doing a lot of tank fighting like in ww2. Otherwise it can be cost prohibitive as well as not living up to its potential. Maybe what we have now can do the job, but since none of us have used a tank in combat, we wouldn't know, oh well.
I still think it's a good idea.
I still think it's a good idea.
Shadowalker
Active member
Yea, tanks have to be shifted by sea as well, and if you have specialist armoured units then they may be in the wrong place in the world for the crisis, and it would take to long to move them there, so the armoured regiments in place are going to have to do the task anyway, so its not worthwhile having a special unit
AussieNick
Forum Digger
Stupid suggestion I say.
We have a system here in Australia where there is a STANDARD of training and equipment. Armoured regiments may use different vehicles (eg. M113, ASLAV, Abrams, Leopard etc), but the soldiers are trained to be equally as good as the next man. There should be no "elite" armoured regiments. They should all be trained to be the best in the world no matter what.
The only soldiers who can be called elite in Australia (and ever will be) are the SAS and 4RAR Commandos. Even the 3RAR Paras, Norforce and Navy Clearance Divers aren't considered to be "Elite" even though anywhere else in the world they would be considered exactly that.
We have a system here in Australia where there is a STANDARD of training and equipment. Armoured regiments may use different vehicles (eg. M113, ASLAV, Abrams, Leopard etc), but the soldiers are trained to be equally as good as the next man. There should be no "elite" armoured regiments. They should all be trained to be the best in the world no matter what.
The only soldiers who can be called elite in Australia (and ever will be) are the SAS and 4RAR Commandos. Even the 3RAR Paras, Norforce and Navy Clearance Divers aren't considered to be "Elite" even though anywhere else in the world they would be considered exactly that.
Shadowalker
Active member
Id forgotten there were 'elite' transport regiments. The french also have some the DOS (Division Des Operations Speciales) with transport planes, Escadrille Des Helicopteres Speciaux(EHS)-(Special Helicopter Squadron).
http://www.specialoperations.com/Foreign/France/Overview.htm
http://www.specialoperations.com/Foreign/France/Overview.htm
cPFC/SAJROTC
Active member
If the original idea was that he means we should develop a more advanced and better trained force, then Im all for it. The idea of training to stop casualties and improve effectiveness has been around since the dawn of armies.
As for using better, newer, and/or different gear, sure, why not? However, the idea of using a "Special Tank Force" or other formation like that raises the question about how they'd be used and what role the remaining units would take in world affairs.
So basically, the idea of developing a "delta force" of tanks, fighter jets and artillery is the wrong application of the right idea I think. SFs currently is used to perform special tasks that typically require stealth infiltration in small groups. Perhaps a small tank team, like 6-12 tanks, trained specifically to break off from a larger group in secret to strike targets that are too large for infantry SF teams is a good idea, but elite fighter jets doesn't seem like an idea with a purpose backing it.
You want "elite" units, you put the absolute best of the best together. Although, that leaves the worst guys together which lowers the effectiveness of those units, so it's a dangerous tradeoff.
As for using better, newer, and/or different gear, sure, why not? However, the idea of using a "Special Tank Force" or other formation like that raises the question about how they'd be used and what role the remaining units would take in world affairs.
So basically, the idea of developing a "delta force" of tanks, fighter jets and artillery is the wrong application of the right idea I think. SFs currently is used to perform special tasks that typically require stealth infiltration in small groups. Perhaps a small tank team, like 6-12 tanks, trained specifically to break off from a larger group in secret to strike targets that are too large for infantry SF teams is a good idea, but elite fighter jets doesn't seem like an idea with a purpose backing it.
You want "elite" units, you put the absolute best of the best together. Although, that leaves the worst guys together which lowers the effectiveness of those units, so it's a dangerous tradeoff.
Stosstruppen
New Member
"So basically, the idea of developing a "delta force" of tanks, fighter jets and artillery is the wrong application of the right idea I think."
Agreed, that only worked in 'GI Joe'.
"Although, that leaves the worst guys together which lowers the effectiveness of those units, so it's a dangerous tradeoff."
Yep, you always have to decide whether you want to concentrate your best men together in smaller units or spread them out among your whole force. Sometimes, the prestige of crewing a particular tank rather than others can foster an 'elite' status within units totally apart from whatever actual differences in training they might have from other tank crews.
In WW2, being part of a 'Tiger' tank crew, as member of the handful of Germany's Heavy Tank Battalions, was considered much more or a prestige or 'elite' posting than crewing a lesser Mark IV or Mark III panzer. Even among the Heavy Tank Battalions, some achieved more success than others even though they had basically the same training, almost becoming an elite within an elite in the Panzerwaffe.
I would imagine that today, the prestige of crewing a Abram or Chieftain is regarded as much higher than crewing other AFV's and probably leads to units fostering an 'elite espirit' even though they might not be necessarily better trained or have a special title.
Agreed, that only worked in 'GI Joe'.
"Although, that leaves the worst guys together which lowers the effectiveness of those units, so it's a dangerous tradeoff."
Yep, you always have to decide whether you want to concentrate your best men together in smaller units or spread them out among your whole force. Sometimes, the prestige of crewing a particular tank rather than others can foster an 'elite' status within units totally apart from whatever actual differences in training they might have from other tank crews.
In WW2, being part of a 'Tiger' tank crew, as member of the handful of Germany's Heavy Tank Battalions, was considered much more or a prestige or 'elite' posting than crewing a lesser Mark IV or Mark III panzer. Even among the Heavy Tank Battalions, some achieved more success than others even though they had basically the same training, almost becoming an elite within an elite in the Panzerwaffe.
I would imagine that today, the prestige of crewing a Abram or Chieftain is regarded as much higher than crewing other AFV's and probably leads to units fostering an 'elite espirit' even though they might not be necessarily better trained or have a special title.