Doppleganger
Active member
Hello Ollie.Ollie Garchy said:Hey Doppleganger,
A couple of thoughts:
(1) I personally would not call any British policy "dark". More like realistic. Maybe I am just too "dark" or jaded by human history. I read an article recently that "uncovered" a "dark truth": the British military used Gestapo-style torture chambers in WWII to force confessions. My initial reaction was: "so what". I guess that I simply do not like the "fairytale" line of interpretation that lists German atrocities without putting anything in perspective. Older Germans (the guys who went through the war) generally have a much different perspective than the post-1945 generations. In a recent television depiction of Dresden, an old dude commented on the fire-bombing of German cities in 1945. He shrugged his shoulders and stated "it was war". That was all he had to say. The younger generations here in Germany actually argue that it was the moral thing to do. Killing German civilians, that is. I personally have a tough time with moral justifications, etc. It was war. Period. I do despise the "we had no choice" or "they started it" type of arguments, however. [Now comes the hard part..."War is the continuation of politics by other means"....oh oh. Maybe we should get rid of the conditions that lead to war or at least think about them.]
(2) Do you think that Europe could ever fight another major regional conflict like WWI or WWII? Has this issue been discussed in another thread? Some French friends of mine think that Germany will once again attempt to dominate Europe militarily. I tried to explain to them that their own bias concerning the origins of WWI and WWII was the primary factor behind their question. I just dryly told them: "Only if France wants one". They of course got mad and held closely to their bias and national myths.
What is Germany? Who in Germany wants war? Is Germany even capable of fighting a war? These French people were content with the kind of argumentation that helped destroy Europe in the first place: Germany reunified. Germany has industrial power (now that's a laugh). This power will lead to war. The traditional French perspective, and I am shocked by this, seems to reduce everything to a theoretical geopolitical calculation. It makes the mere possession of "power" the prime variable for an aggressive foreign policy. Ie. country "x" is dangerous because it seems to have "power". Now, that is crude and dangerous.
[On that note, I think it is high time for a British-German quasi-alliance. A better Europe should be led by the guys who pay for the damn thing, anyway. A British-Dutch-German axis around which Europe revolves. I say: "No more highways to nowhere in Portugal". I say: "No more French agricultural subsidies". I say: "A better energy policy that is not built on French nuclear technology". I say...well, you get the point...A better Europe is one with less French involvement. Does any of this have anything to do with WWII origins. No. I even (sort of) like France and some of the people who live there].
Perhaps 'dark' was a little melodramatic when concerning British WW2 foreign (and other) policy. I suppose a better word would be selfish. It might have a little to do with the animosity that still exists between England and France, 2 ancient enemies. Until the rise of Prussia and Germany afterwards it was France, and not Germany, that was the principal enemy of England and later Britain. But France was left to fend for itself in June 1940 when it was clear that high loss of British life would result in any attempt to reinforce the French Army in the field. Indeed there were only 2 'British' divisions in France during May to June 1940 (the 52nd Infantry Division and the 1st Canadian Division), with only 1 more division slated to arrive (on June 20th). Sounds like a pretty half-hearted attempt to me.
Coming back to your question as to whether Europe will see another regional conflict on the lines of WW1/WWII it's a good question and one that deserves a thread of its own. I'm unsure whether this question has already been tackled but certainly it won't hurt to have another thread on the subject.
To Boris:
It wasn't just the Romanian 3rd and 4th Armies that faced the Kiev and Odessa Military Districts on June 22nd 1941. The Germans also had the 11th and 17th Armies and 1st Panzergruppe (later 1st Panzerarmee) deployed in that area, although it's true that 11th Army was delayed in deploying, which allowed local Soviet forces to go on a limited offensive in Galicia. However, this smacks of local Soviet commanders (for once) taking the initiative rather than them having actual offensive orders. Another thing to mention is that this was the one area of the front where the Soviet forces actually outnumbered the Axis forces invading them. Gerd von Rundstedt, commander of Army Group South, had 54 divisions whilst there were 68 Soviet divisions defending the area. Hitler's designs on the Ukraine were well known to Stalin.
The Romanian Armies themselves were, in truth, decently trained and led. The main problem with them was their general lack of armour and AT guns rather than any shortcomings of the actual men themselves. They were well motivated as well, but the delay of 11th Army allowed the Soviet forces in the area to do well for a time.