What would USA look like if the Civil War never ended?




 
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October 23rd, 2004  
Red_Army
 
 

Topic: What would USA look like if the Civil War never ended?


If the American Civil War never ended, historical events would be completely different today. The north and south would become 2 seperate countries. South USA would be anti-Black, while the North USA would be pro-Black.
October 23rd, 2004  
godofthunder9010
 
 
What you are describing is what it would have looked like if the south had won. Remember, they had no aspirations of taking over the nation, they just wanted to be their own country.

It's not that hard to see what the world would be like. You'd have two bitter enemies in North America and during WW1 they probably would have picked different sides and then fought each other, largely negating the overall contribution of the United States to the Allies. This probably loses that war for the UK and France. Germany would have become enormous, controlling much of Belarus and the Ukraine. Hitler would have never risen to power because he would have never had the chance to. The old and rotting massive empires of Europe? Its hard to say what happens with the Ottoman and Austrian Empires. The Balkans would have been divied up between those two ... what portion they didn't already control. Those two would have seen something of a revival, but their systems were still failing. That probably creates a collapse for Austria, who would be "rescued" by Germany -- who gets even more gigantic. Its hard to envision what happens to the Ottomans. I'm not sure how much of the French and British Empires would have been ceded to a victorious Germany after World War I.

From there its difficult to say how things go. The UK and France would have been the victims of a raw deal similar to Versalles and would have been seeking revenge. Would they have been disarmed in the same way that Germany was disarmed? If so, the German Navy becomes the new King of the Oceans for awhile.

In North America, this scenario could prove messy. For instance, if Great Britain had intervened in favor of the South, the North would have likely taken their revenge by invading Canada -- and unlike the War of 1812, this time the United States would have been truly driven. In any case, it keeps the industrial might of the North decidedly against the the UK for a long time to come.

If Britain had stayed out, then its still not too rosey for our neighbors to the North. The North and the South would bicker a lot of who gets what pieces of the the Continent, and it may have proven to be very dangerous for both Canada and Mexico. The North and South would have been driven to outdo each other and this likely means siezing land that in real history they left alone. Numerous border wars between the two is inevitable.
October 23rd, 2004  
The Other Guy
 
 
Landmines. yikes
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October 23rd, 2004  
Duty Honor Country
 
 
the US would be one of those war torn countries like Afganistan, Liberia, Sudan, Somalia or the Balkans.
October 23rd, 2004  
Marksman
 
 
i think that US would look like like Europe,every country for it self..............with landmines
October 25th, 2004  
Pigpen
 

Topic: Re: What would USA look like if the Civil War never ended?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Red_Army
If the American Civil War never ended, historical events would be completely different today. The north and south would become 2 seperate countries. South USA would be anti-Black, while the North USA would be pro-Black.
The war wasnt about slavery to the extent it was made out to be. Taxation without reperesentation, the push west for agricultural/industrial land, the retention of states rights etc. had ALOT more influance then slavery in the creation of the confederacy. hell, if you had money or owned slaves, you didnt have to fight anyhow. (30 negro law.) the fighting was done by the lower class that worked on plantations with the slaves. I believe it was 1859, the southern states was leading the vote count in the US to abolish slavery. bottom line - the Slavery issue was a bleeding heart recruitment tactic for the north to give soldiers a cause to enlist & fight for. The very first conscription act was also a recruitment tool for the north. As they say, to the victor goes the spoils, and the loser HAS to be the evil empire. but, interestingly, nobody ever talks about the child slavery going on in the northern states to make the uniforms, wepons etc. for the troops on the great crusade to end slavery. IMO Honest Abe was the beginning of the end for the United States as the Founding Fathers intended it to be. with the constitutional cornerstone of States Rights & the concept of the purely volunteer militia gone, america started sliding into exactly what our forefathers were against. The south was executing their right to stand up as Americans & fight for what they thought was right. They were trying to claim what they though was their birthright as the true Americans. I can feel the heat from all the flames coming my way... and dont forget this quote in the Emancipation Proclamation - "And I further declare and make known, that such persons of suitable condition, will be received into the armed service of the United States to garrison forts, positions, stations, and other places, and to man vessels of all sorts in said service. " The north was so short of soldiers by 1863, they had to add a recruitment pitch to the Proclamation. which, BTW, wasnt put into effect until 2 years after the war started.
October 25th, 2004  
godofthunder9010
 
 

The underlying thing is that this is not a discussion about why the Civil War was declared, though I do think that Red Army approaches the subject from a perspective that is perhaps too simplistic: Black and White and race.

The greatest underlying reason for the Civil War was the as yet untested theory that a state could secede and declare itself to no longer be bound by the Constitution of the United States. Naturally, that as an ideology was far from sufficient for the North. It is interesting that the South seceded in apparent protest of the first ever avowed abolitionist winning the Presidency -- this fact destroys the claim that slavery had nothing to do with the Civil War at all -- or its the most bizarre coincidence imaginable. Why hadn't the South seceded decades earlier? Why was it just President Lincoln that pushed them to the brink?

Much of what you claim is wrong because you have events and conclusions out of chronological order. Its probably a worthwhile discussion, but it needs its own topic since it doesn't really fit very well in this one.
October 25th, 2004  
Pigpen
 
I do apologize for that, but I am heavy into the War Between the States & couldnt stand to see a blunt black/white comparison between the north & the south... I have to answer your question & then a mod can delete my posts if they wish.... or even perhaps create a new thread if possible! one of the final straws was the conversion of cotton to textiles... the north was buying the cotton at low prices, turning it into various products in their factories & selling it back to the south at outrageous prices. the south got sick of this & made a deal with the french to convert their raw cotton into fininshed product at a much lower price. the north didnt like this at all & imposed huge taxs on the Souths cotton exports. to the point of The Confederate states making up 87% of the total tax revenue of the Federal treasury in 1860. This was a prime example of taxation without reperesentation, one of the major causes of the revolutionary war. The south didnt like this one bit & took up arms.

Quote:
The greatest underlying reason for the Civil War was the as yet untested theory that a state could secede and declare itself to no longer be bound by the Constitution of the United States.
they didnt secede just to see if it could be done...




now, to answer the original post.... we would have ceased to exist in the mid-1900`s. we wouldve been so war torn that we wouldnt have been able to contribute to WW1 or WW2, Germany wouldve defeated Britain, crossed the atlantic & invaded our East Coast & Japan wouldve invaded our West Coast. after they steamrolled us, Germany wouldve exterminated the Japs & we would all be speaking German & fighting Russians. or we wouldve nuked each other & turned our country into a un-inhabitable wasteland full of 2 headed ameri-mutants... [/quote]
October 26th, 2004  
battery
 
Something like this...





Of course, Union Territories would probaly now be states... The world would be alot different... Manifest Destiny would probaly remain a dream until a new government were established in the Union.
December 2nd, 2004  
airmanpatroler
 
 
Read Harry Turtledove's HOW FEW REMAIN