The what if thread -WW2-




 
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July 9th, 2009  
ddg2sailor
 

Topic: The what if thread -WW2-


I have been looking for a place to post this but its not easy to find the right group. I hope I found it here.

My area of interest is ww2. Being too young to have been there I have to rely on the history books and the media. There are endless books about ww2 and some even about this topic (Which I will get to in a moment).

Let me start by being clear. WW2 is over. Some of those we fought with are now friends and some are our best allies. And so and with due respect to all parties :

What would have happened if certain key events did not occur....

What would have happened if the USA had not gotten into WW2?

With the USA in the war.... (just to be clear).

Early in the war the government had been treating with the government of Russia (I hope I have this correctly) but at some point they stopped treating with russia and opened I believe was a third front , against Russia. What would have happened if Adolp Hitler hadnt turned against Russia?

I hope this dosent offend anyone. I am curious what people think. Il post my guess's later for surely thats all they can be.

Robert
July 9th, 2009  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddg2sailor
I have been looking for a place to post this but its not easy to find the right group. I hope I found it here.

My area of interest is ww2. Being too young to have been there I have to rely on the history books and the media. There are endless books about ww2 and some even about this topic (Which I will get to in a moment).

Let me start by being clear. WW2 is over. Some of those we fought with are now friends and some are our best allies. And so and with due respect to all parties :

What would have happened if certain key events did not occur....

What would have happened if the USA had not gotten into WW2?

With the USA in the war.... (just to be clear).


Early in the war the government had been treating with the government of Russia (I hope I have this correctly) but at some point they stopped treating with russia and opened I believe was a third front , against Russia. What would have happened if Adolp Hitler hadnt turned against Russia?

I hope this dosent offend anyone. I am curious what people think. Il post my guess's later for surely thats all they can be.

Robert
This is a tough "what if" because it is such an all encompassing scenario but I guess I will start things off...

- I think it unlikely that the USA would have avoided WW2 after the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor.

- However if we assume that the Japanese decided to take on British, French and Dutch possessions in Asia instead of attacking the USA I really don't know if the USA would have had an excuse to enter the war especially in the European theater.
I think however life for the British Commonwealth would have been very difficult without at least the material support of the USA.

In terms of the European theater I think very little would have changed without the USA, Britain could not have hoped to set foot on continental Europe but as long as Britain stayed in the war Russia would have eventually worn down the German army.
July 9th, 2009  
Zastava-Arms
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
In terms of the European theater I think very little would have changed without the USA, Britain could not have hoped to set foot on continental Europe but as long as Britain stayed in the war Russia would have eventually worn down the German army.
I agree, if the USA didnt enter the European theatre then the Red Army would have eventually have occupied all of Europe, and made the majority of the continent a Communist fiasco.
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July 9th, 2009  
BritinAfrica
 
 
Here's a “What if.”



What if the invading German Army in Russia acted as liberators of the Russian people saving them from the despotic rule of Stalin, then treating them in a far more humane way, could the outcome on the Eastern front be any different?
July 9th, 2009  
Doppleganger
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
In terms of the European theater I think very little would have changed without the USA, Britain could not have hoped to set foot on continental Europe but as long as Britain stayed in the war Russia would have eventually worn down the German army.
Does this include no Lend-Lease?

IMO 'what if' questions need to have tightly set boundaries, otherwise they can quickly spiral out of control.

To answer BritinAfrica's question I think it might have made quite a difference, not least because Germany would not have had to delay to capture Kiev and would have at least hundreds of thousands of auxiliary troops fighting on their side and causing confusion amongst the Soviets.

The problem with this 'what if' scenario is that it would mean that the Nazi regime would have to have totally different policies and ideologies than they did historically. Would such a Nazi regime then even be in Russia in the first place?
July 9th, 2009  
Klibanophoros
 
 
What if the Japanese managed to build a fleet of five hundred 'Yamoto' class battleships?

What if the germans followed suit with an improved bismarck class fleet of five hundred?

What would the Allied reponse be?

How would Naval warfare in WWII and in history be affected?
July 9th, 2009  
ddg2sailor
 
some very interesting comments. In truth would the nazi have been less nazi-like if they had elected to make some changes?

I find the concept of Germany the liberator's of Russia very interesting. While certainly the german people are capable of such things... I fear that hitler wasnt likly to want to liberate anyone.

Perhaps you are right.... this may be too open ended.. Certainly the events I outlined are unlikely , more so as they never transpired. But i my mind they were at the time at least something that may have happened... but diddnt.

Now the Idea of rapid increased fleet's for Germany and Japan are interesting but for the Japanese part its seems even more unlikly. Being an Island nation one has to wonder where they got the material to build the fleet they did have. But after dec 7 it seemed they would have lacked the resouces to build 500 battleships.

As for the german's. They may have had some of the resources to built up thier surface fleet but as far as I know thier capital ships and thier q ships were largely in theator at the start of the war and maybe some of the q ships were converted. Instead the german people in a move that may have won the war put all thier efforts into building U boats. It did of course take time to build even these... but they turned them out in record numbers and their deployment and subsequent actions was nothing short of heroic. In hind sight and from the wrong perspective.

As for lend lease... no reason it should'nt go on as indeed it did prior to the events of dec 7. But as the russians are either neutral or liberated by the Nazi's we wont send them any planes or ww1 era destroyers.

As for the Russians they fought briliantly to protect their homeland. They were taken by suprise but managed to make a decent accounting. I wont add another variable to this as some would say its already too confusing...

But dont the Russian people make great democrats? Gotta admire the way they took to it. Perhaps I misspeak here.... whatever it is that the russian system is evolving in to.. it seems to work for them.

I hope I managed to address all the points... Im not great fan of cut and past replies.

Robert
July 10th, 2009  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
Here's a “What if.”



What if the invading German Army in Russia acted as liberators of the Russian people saving them from the despotic rule of Stalin, then treating them in a far more humane way, could the outcome on the Eastern front be any different?
I don't think it would have been different, I certainly think they would have had a better chance at winning due to the reduction in partisan activity but they still would have had the same supply and manpower issues, there was an idea that if they had acted as liberators that they could have attracted large numbers of Russians to fight for them but I think that is a long shot as even if they did get the numbers bringing them up to a level where they could have operated as part of the German Army (rather than just cannon fodder and garrison troops) would have taken years.

If you read Manstein's Lost Victories he goes into this problem talking about the Romanians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger
Does this include no Lend-Lease?

IMO 'what if' questions need to have tightly set boundaries, otherwise they can quickly spiral out of control.

To answer BritinAfrica's question I think it might have made quite a difference, not least because Germany would not have had to delay to capture Kiev and would have at least hundreds of thousands of auxiliary troops fighting on their side and causing confusion amongst the Soviets.

The problem with this 'what if' scenario is that it would mean that the Nazi regime would have to have totally different policies and ideologies than they did historically. Would such a Nazi regime then even be in Russia in the first place?

I agree and I think I pointed out that the question was a little bit too "all encompassing" for my liking, however I am not so sure I agree with the Russian auxiliaries argument.
July 10th, 2009  
brillix
 
 
If the USA didn't enter the European theatre then the Nazi will be focused on Eastern Front against The Red Army. WW2 won't ended at 1945 for sure.
July 10th, 2009  
Chukpike
 
Since this is what if, then why not the US getting Germany to declare war on Japan after December 7th, 1941. Agreeing to aid Germany against Russia. US taking all the western hemisphere, Germany taking Europe and Russia. US taking Japan and China.

With German Uboats not needed against American convoys, they could be used against Japan.

Should give Germany and the US time to divide up the rest of the world after that.
 


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