What if the Nationalists had won the Chinese Civil War? - Page 2

March 15th, 2005  
Agreed. It's funny and rather absurd how a large muscular guy with a bow and explosive arrows take on a large group of Russians, gets lucky now and then, and still emerges victorious.

But I think they were talking about no invasion of Afghanistan by the Soviet Union as a result of a KMT victory.
March 15th, 2005  
Mark Conley

I still see china as having 2 very major problems, even if the nationalists had won instead of the communists:

1. there was still an imperialist movement within china: some wanted a return to the emperor, some wanted the democratic reforms that sun yet sen had promised, but had never gone to fruition under chang ki sheck. I believe that there might have been the possibility of yet another internal conflict..one that had been put on hold by the chinese-japanese wars. Only this conflict would have dragged the US into the fray...probley with dire consequences for the US.

2. even under the nationalist government...there were still warlords and other holdouts opposing the government. I could see that a long term military offensive against these groups, which would have sapped and taxed the nationalists efforts to modernize and bring industry to the land.

just a thought...i think because of these two conditions, it would have probably been 1975 or so before the nation would have finally settled down and had a cohesive effort to modernize, industrialize, and adopt means to feed the country.
March 15th, 2005  
oh come on, you guys just shift all the blames to the communists in the history, not think it as "reality". but let's be realistic here, with that assumption.

if KMT took power, indeed, Taiwan is still under china control. but with communist movement in seciety still under the dark and planty support from the north neibour, there will be a long long strauggle.

hard to say weither NK would be wipe out or not, in fact, we can't say, because the North might not even start to invade south, and certainly USSR would not let them and would not watch them to be defeated neither. if URRS can keep East Germany under Communist rule for that long--with banch advanced nations surarounded, one more like NK wouldn't be the problem and much easier to keep and deal with.

Although china could be in trouble with USSR, it is possible the north china could be cut out by the USSR to link NK. seriously, even communist china had to fight with USSR for north border dispute.

the Tibet will not be part of china? i don't think so, the map from KMT time also mark the Tibet as part of china. the only thing would happen might be the whole world didn't even care about Tibet like today, and Dalai Lama would not had the populisity he had today.

avoiding the 62 indo war? you must be joking! communist government was just picked up what KMT's arguement! either way, their would be talks and talks, if talks failed, china would pretect it by force, be clear, KMT is a nationalist, under his rule, not a single inch of land were lost, not a single history disputed land was given up, if he was there in 62, with the weatern backup..... wish the KMT government would give up it freely? keep dreaming. you have the pic.

not even mention outter mogolia was still on the china map, how can china be any smaller?? if we don't even give up outter mongolia, how can we be "kindly enought" to give up the disputed land to india?

vietam war avoided? yeah sure, but the US might just have started their vietam war from china, and chinese army would have just had to keep busy at the north border with USSR to "help" americans at south.

there were another thing would have changed though, Taiwan and hongkong might not be that advanced in technology and economy. and japanese might not be that brainless to forget what they done in WW2, cz they would not have the guts to do it, and US certainly would not help. two western block countries just had to deal it their own.

sum up, either way, china would have a lot of conflicts to deal with, a lot of things to think about, and even inside the country, a lot of mess to be addressed out. but, keep this in mind, a country's interests is still the top piority, no metter what the political system is. a nation would be constanly challenged by different events and maximizing their own interests is the key.
March 16th, 2005  

dude, ccp had only a couple of aks, some 122mm cannons and a few trucks delivere dby cccp, but that was it for them
March 16th, 2005  
Originally Posted by Zucchini
Man, I'm pullin' for the kmt now. I hate those movies. I can't believe people actually think "Rambo" is the history of a Vietnam vet.
You misunderstood. No one with a decent education thinks that Rambo was a real character. It was mentioned in good humour, since the movies were based with that war as a back ground.
March 17th, 2005  

Topic: k...

Mark Conley and K19 have practical points. The topic can become a very emotional one if oneside disregards the historical back ground and situation of China at that time.

It is very easy to blame Communists at present time when many of you never suffered decades of humiliation, destabilization and total corruption like Chinese people did. Flip open history books, ask yourselves, did KMT represent welfare of the Chinese people?

Mark described it good. War-Lordism and imperialism would have killed China if KMT won the war. Feudalism also prevalent and widely practiced during that period as well.
March 17th, 2005  

Topic: Re: k...

Originally Posted by Boobies
Mark Conley and K19 have practical points. The topic can become a very emotional one if oneside disregards the historical back ground and situation of China at that time.

It is very easy to blame Communists at present time when many of you never suffered decades of humiliation, destabilization and total corruption like Chinese people did. Flip open history books, ask yourselves, did KMT represent welfare of the Chinese people?

Mark described it good. War-Lordism and imperialism would have killed China if KMT won the war. Feudalism also prevalent and widely practiced during that period as well.
KMT was really corrupted back in the 1940s. Hundreds of Taiwanese were starved to death when KMT took control -- which paved the way for the 228 Incident in 1947 where Taiwanese united and rebelled against the KMT control. The democracy we see in Taiwan is 50+ years of evolution, I will not credit the progress to the KMT fully because they've done their share of white terror. At times of war people suffer, it is hard to say if KMT would've fared better or worse had they won the war...
March 18th, 2005  

Topic: Zyca...

I met an older Taiwanese couple in the States. The husband was KMT officer. They both told me KMT did some nasty stuffs (Chiang was a soldier rather than a politician) to the TW protestors.

Mainland Chinese were stuck in the hard place during that time. They took a chance with Communism (organization, patriotism, and free from decades of degradation) because it offered hope while the other offered total chaos.
April 7th, 2010  

Topic: Let us continue in 2010

I believe everyone is overstepping the main point and obstacle of this argument. We are discussing the possibility of a strong Nationalist Chinese Government under KMT, we have to look at specific figures and state of China at the time.

1. Yuan Shikai was the General of the most powerful Chinese army post 1st Sino-Japanese war. His Beiyang army was modernized to Japanese standards and was the only reason for Chinese unification while overthrowing the Qing Dynasty. The Qing Dynasty and KMT all asked for his allegiance, in the end he joined KMT with their promise to make him president. His actions in power was the most important events and changes that led to the downfall of the KMT.

- Yuan's dumb ass broke all KMT policies and reforms, by reinstating his generals as military governors of each province. That in effect created warlords, instead of a unified governmental and military system that belonged to the people. If the military belonged to the KMT's government's senate, than there would not have been so many warlords swearing allegiance to the communists and effect siding their army with them.
- Yuan also saw the rising power and influence of Sun Yat-Sen. Yuan assassinated Sun's followers and bribed a number of their cabinet. This mistake led to the widespread media's depiction of KMT being corrupt and unfit to govern.
- Yuan made himself Emperor. China lost it's crucial baby years of reform after revolution to Yuan's greed. This effect gave more reason for people to discredit KMT as being a suitable government, even after KMT took back China from Yuan's empire.

2. Sun Yat-Sen is regarded as China's George Washington. He was well educated and influential. Studied in Hawaii and earned a degree. Influenced by Franklin, Washington, and Lincoln. His ideas implemented the 'Three Principles of the People' that was similar to Lincolns. Records say that the Nationalists called him a nationalistic, socialists called him a socialistic, and anarchists also favored him.

- If he had not been kicked out by Yuan, then China would have saved any distrust of KMT because of being led by Sun. His ideas were favored by all parties withing communists and nationalists. With majority of Communists, Nationalists and Anarchists all on KMT's side would have turned the 2nd Civil war into a mere small conflict.
- Also, by imitating ideas and policies learnt in America, Sun would have built a strong central government. In times of chaos, 1000 leaders would bring chaos, but 1 leader like Sun could have had the nation pointing one direction. If Yuan had not kicked Sun out, Sun would have had at least 10 more years to implement his policies and build a strong government. The fall of KMT was when Sun died and Chaing Kai-Shek (an able military leader but not politically) took over. The few decades that Sun was alive could have been spent on China instead of being in exile-- KMT would have been strong and unified by upholding Sun's Americanized philosophies and policies.

3. Japanese invasion. Japan was already in Korea and Manchuria during China's revolution. Some of you stated that 2nd Sino-Japanese war might not have happened-- bull, they still would have attacked. Japanese planned take-over of first Korea, then the highly industrialized Manchuria, and rest of China. Manchuria was their platform and base for the attack of China. The reason why China could not successfully fend off their attack was the lack of coordination between armies, industries, and logistics. If KMT fended of the Japanese quickly, they would have saved most of their industry and most importantly their soldiers. KMT lost a total of 3 million men fighting the Japanese. Communists lost about 500 thousand. Imagine if KMT used the 3 million men to fight the communists??

-Coordination was lacking because of Yuan's implementation of regional military powers (warlords). Having warlords was also detrimental to logistics because they did not prepare the rails and logistics to support each other-- they were more concerned about their own survival. If it was centralized and turned warlords into national generals, while having civilians govern themselves, then the fight against the Japanese would have been better coordinated and concentrated.

In conclusion, if all these mistakes had not happened, then China would have been a greater power and more peaceful than it is today. Yuan's recreation of warlords, Sun's wasted time in exile that should have been spent in reform, and disunity in the fight against Japan are the main factors that needed to have changed; everything else would have fell in place with Sun's policies and projection of KMT's trustworthy and uncorrupted image. Remember, KMT didn't lose the civil war because of military losses... it was because half the army switching sides to the communists.

China would have been larger than it is today, incorporating all of it's provinces like outer-mongolia and tibet. Just like U.S.A., there would be no separating a union.

Korea would be democratic because of China's support of South Korea. There is a good chance that USSR would have attacked China for supporting U.S.A. and South Korea militarily and/or supplies.

Vietnam would have not had the 300,000+ rifles and millions of tons of food and ammunition supplied by China. Vietnam would have lost to the Americans.

Cambodia would be invaded by Vietnam and China to overthrow the Kmher Rouge, instead of just the Vietnamese.

India and China would have probably not have the conflicts, because of mutual similarities in governmental processes gain each other's trust for further negotiations.

Don't forget, U.S.A. and China would have even closer ties because U.S.A. would set up funding and military bases within China's northern boarder that are strategic importance as a defense against U.S.S.R.

Anime would be Chinese. Honda's would be Wong's. And the movie 'The Last Samurai' played by Tom Cruz would instead called 'The Last Shaolin Monk' and Tom Cruz would have to shave his head.

Also, since China boarders Afghanistan, U.S. Led NATO operations in the afghan war would be based mainly in China instead of paying off Saudi Arabia, Iran, and UAE due to the historical close ties in Korean and Vietnam war between U.S. and China. China would have been more closely tied to U.S.A. than any of the current middle eastern nations.

I hope you guys are still alive since this thread is 5 years old. I'd love to hear your opinions and responses.

God Bless America
April 9th, 2010  
Well I ain't them, but the the thing that strikes me the most is how US policy would be completely different, as the anti war protest marches and the movement they started would never have happened (or at least not have had as much power), which would have a profound impact on US foreign policy, which in turn would affect so many things that I get a headache trying to figure it all out. It's like trying to roll a dozen pairs of dice in your head.