What if Hitler had nuclear weapons? - Page 5




 
--
 
October 28th, 2011  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lljadw
US had a plane that could transport a nucleair bomb,Germany had not .Germany also had no aircraft that could attack the US and return .
I also doubt very much that a German V1/V2 could transport a nucleair weapon.
IMHO,the whole theory of Germany having nucleair weapons, is senseless.
I agree I do not believe Germany was anywhere near producing a working atomic weapon but I don't for a second believe that if Germany had a bomb it would have been used in the West I believe that he would have turned it against the Russians in seconds flat so whether they had an aircraft capable of transatlantic flight or not is in my opinion senseless.
October 31st, 2011  
r.fox
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lljadw
US had a plane that could transport a nucleair bomb,Germany had not .Germany also had no aircraft that could attack the US and return .
I also doubt very much that a German V1/V2 could transport a nucleair weapon.
IMHO,the whole theory of Germany having nucleair weapons, is senseless.
thats the point i am trying to make, that the Germans didnt have a plane that could carry a 13 tonne pay load. the only way the americans could bomb hiroshima and nagasaki was because the us bombs only weighed about 4 tonnes
November 17th, 2011  
LEG
 

Topic: Laughter From The Peanut Gallery


The Nazi Nuke operated on what we now call 'Isomer' technology for such is what 'Deutron Beams' really comes down to.

After taking the temperature down with canned nitrogen or even air (to increase the cross-section of th atoms), the weapon compressed a gelled plasmoid of Thorium derived U233 (as Xerum 525 which was radioactively _very_ 'hot' thanks to the Beryllium additives) and parafin, likely contained in thin layers between a graphite or cadmium inhibitors.

The 'bazooka' system was a dual core system with explosives INSIDE as well as outside the core, to keep total volumes low.

This is why Hans Schlicke (from memory), a fuze expert, was bringing IR photoelectric fuses to Japan on U-234 and why the U.S. fuse engineer who was responsible for the Plutonium bomb fusing was part of the interrogation team that 'debriefed' him, a fortnight before the Trinity test device was suddenly remilled to incorporate holes for IR floodlighting of the core cavity.

The Nazi uranium bomb used implosion technology, not gun.

Such a system compressed the U233 to a point where shape compression became spin release as a massive flood of X-Rays.

Lithium Deuteride, the fuel material inside modern fusion weapons (and refined by Manfred Von Ardenne, beginning in 1943) was subsequently induced to fuse by this release and it's own thermal/G-Ray spike -could- be directed to induce a secondary, down a long tamper.

Which is why the German 'small', tactical, bombs were so long.

i.e. The German weapons were not just atomic but boosted and perhaps even full fusion weapons for which the fissile initiator was little more than a sparkplug of less than 100grams.

Thorium is important in this because Thorium can be induced to transmute fairly easily without the Xenon poisoning of conventional U238 reduction, using a large capacitor discharge system (hello Von Ardenne Source) in which the field lines were further torsionally stressed by rotation within an opposed set of magnetically opposed rotors.

'Die Glocke' was _not_ a cyclotron or calutron but a PDC or Plasma Discharge Capacitor.

One whose 5 million volt charge effectively made singe stage stepup in not simply the root element conversion but it' metastable isomer bands.

The Isomers only had a lifetime of a few hours and so had to be used -rapidly-, which is why emphasis upon the Me-264 and Ju-390 were dropped as even one way Amerika Bombers as the emphasis switched to the A-9/10 derived ICBM.

As soon as the Germans had enough U235 or Pu239 derived from simple cooking of raw U238 material around a Beryllium or Radium source inside graphite lined spherical bodies (held in wine casks in the Jonastahl or 'Burg' [Ohrdruf] complexes), they had strategic weapons.

These weapons in turn would in turn be what we now call F3 or Fission-Fusion-Fission weapons. And Teller-Ulam becomes a grand farce.

I would also add that you people are conflating terms. _Germany_ did not develop nuclear weapons. Czechoslovakia (the 'Reich's Protectorate') and Austria did. The Greater Reich included those regions and so the Nazis -did- develop atomic devices.

Which is exactly why the truth will never be admitted.

Since a combination of active sabotage/shortages of the complex initiators and the general lack of targets (why we did NOT fix ourselves in front of Berlin like the bloodyminded Soviets) meant that the limited numbers of weapons with a mere 300m blast radius could not defeat the Allies already in Germany (it would have meant the extermination of the German people in revenge, had they tried...) meant that tactical limitations had _humanitarian outcomes_.

We had no such excuse.

Because the Japanese could be defeated simply by bombing all their lines of communication and poisoning/burning their rice fields until they starved at a 1,000 people per day rather than 60,000 in a the blink of an eye.

And as signatories to the Hague convention which entirely _forbids_ attacks on civilian targets (or dual use targets without prior warning to evacuate the civilians), we were guilty of massive war crimes.

While those 'evil monsters', the Nazis, had nuclear weapons and did not use them.

Where this joke of history becomes particularly ludicrous is that there is evidence that Hitler -did- in fact have a few, full yield, weapons available. And we stole them.

His weapons may have come via a separate effort between Harteck (who knew the critical radii off the back of his hand at Farm Hall and corrected the idiot/traitor Heisenberg) and the Kriegsmarine, operating out of his Hamburg lab (there may have been more ultracentrifuges than is acknowledged...).

Alternately, it is also said that at least two weapons were removed from the Thuringian complex for loading at Kiel and transport to the large airfield outside of Oslo where between 11 and 26 He-177 had been converted from large stocks of withdrawn aircraft to four engine configuration with a large bomb bay.

Goering deliberately chose to sabotage this effort and KG-40 paid the price with their entire officer staff executed for refusing to fly the mission to attack, presumably, Moscow, London and/or Antwerp, around the 20th of April, 1945.

The Luftwaffe war diaries for that day have been 'lost', since War end. Because we wanted to hang Fat Herman for 'war crimes'.

Without the mission aircraft, the weapons coming from Burg complex were diverted to Salzburg where their arranged handover caused Patton to make a hell for leather advance into the Driecks region and 150km beyond, towards Pilsen (Skoda) and Prague.

In this context, look at the Little Boy and compare it with the configuration and shape of the German SC series GP bombs. That's a German case with a German core using German U233 in huge quantities (70-100KG, the reason why the weapon yielded out at near-Nagasaki levels).

We didn't have anything like that quantity available to waste as we were using every gram of U235 we got out of the gas diffusion plants at Oakridge as feedstock for the Plutonium effort at Hanford.

Yet the Little Boy was _dropped first_.

The known history of WWII is a flat out lie, furthered to cover up the massive industrial profiteering campaign (you don't invade Italy in 1943 when you have 100% certainty of Zitadelle's launch date and the Atlantik Wall _does not exist_!). One which effectively LOST the war when the Germans were the first to get the nuke.

Add to this the illegal, immoral and _evil_ slaughter of Japanese civilians and the certainty that the Germans did not act as we did.

And the certainty that such a massive fraud and conspiracy to cover up the facts would mean that EVERY subsequent U.S. coverup (Nasty Boats and the Gulf Of Tonkin, CIA Radar Aerostats on the Saudi Border in 1991...) would be equally subject to 'review'.

The result would be that the U.S. Government would _never be trusted again_. Not with a penny. Not with a pound.
--
November 17th, 2011  
lljadw
 
this is a lot of "Oliver Stone" nonsens:there was no slaughter of Japanese civilians,and the killing of civilians was not illegal,of course,you don't know that it is impossible to wage war,without killing civilians?
And,as Hiroshima, Nagasaki,Hamburg,Dresden ,Coventry,London, etc were not civilian targets,to refer to the Hague convention,is an other stupidity .THe US were not guilty of massive war crimes :Hiroshima and Nagasaki were good things :they saved the lives of a lot of US soldiers,something that for you,is ,of course,irrelevant :they were only Americans .
November 18th, 2011  
Seehund
 
The theory about the development of nuclear weapons by the Germans is among those hypotheses that can neither be confirmed nor denied. Most often, the authors mention some secret documents allegedly kept in the archives of the secret services of the former enemies of Germany. Of course, it is difficult to say whether this is true or not, since no one saw these documents other than their authors.

There is a standalone theory that was suggested in 2005 by a German historian Rainer Karlsch in his book "Hitler's Bomb. In this monograph, the author, citing eyewitness accounts, shows that in 1944 on the Baltic island of Rügen and in the spring of 1945 in Thuringia atomic bombs were tested. All these data are based on the testimony of local residents and journalists from the countries of Germany's allies who spoke about the blasts accompanied by intense light flashes.

The testimony of a certain Claire Werner recorded and documented in the 1960s by the city authorities of Arnstadt, where, according to historians, they are still stored in local archives. A Wehrmacht officer that Frau Werner knew said to her in an outburst of frankness in the spring of 1945 that "tonight something will happen that can shake the world." The intrigued lady perched herself by the window where she could observe what was happening at the military training ground near the Thuringian town of Ohrdruf. Then the night turned to day: "I saw a huge pillar rising into the sky, and suddenly it was so light that you could read a newspaper. The pillar rushed into the sky, turning into a huge tree with a wide crown".

Other testimony about the testing in Thuringia said that the explosion caused damage in a radius of 500 meters. In particular, several hundred prisoners of war who were used as testing material have been killed. Some of them burned without a trace. One of the participants in these tests said that many nearby residents have complained of nausea and nose bleeding over the next few days after the tests. One witness testified that he helped to burn a great number of dead bodies the next day: they were all bald, and some had blisters on their body and naked raw red flesh.

In addition, Karlsch refers to the results of the measurements carried out later by the U.S. military on the ground test site in Thuringia where traces of radioactive isotopes were found. In particular, soil samples showed the presence of radioactive elements, namely uranium, plutonium, cesium 137 and cobalt 60. Summing up all these and other facts, Mr. Karlsch concludes that by the end of the war the Germany already had a completely ready atomic bomb. Had the country managed to establish its serial production, the results of the World War II could have beeen somewhat different.

However, Rainer Karlsch in his book says that all these facts are not indisputable evidence of his hypothesis. In fact, a bright flash and a cloud that resembles a mushroom can sometimes occur as a result of the explosions of conventional, though quite powerful bombs (and not just bombs - many witnesses of the tragedy of September 11, 2001 in the United States said that a cloud of smoke and dust rising from the collapsing Twin Towers looked like a "mushroom cloud"). The isotope of uranium found in soil was not the one used in an atomic bomb. Hair loss and sores on the bodies of the dead may appear not only due to ionizing radiation, but also because of the use of shells with chemical weapons.

The main thing is that in March of 1945, when the tests in Thuringia were allegedly conducted, allied troops were already very close. Why did their seismographic tools (available in each army) not detect any strong shaking? They should have taken place because, judging by the witnesses' testimony, the blast was of "land" type. They are detected by seismographs fast enough. This information is unlikely to have been ignored by the command of the allies' troops.

I am not going to engage in denial or confirmation of Karlsh's hypothesis because, unlike him, I do not have access to secret archives of the intelligence. I would like to simply analyze the purely theoretical possibility of nuclear weapons being created by the Germans at the end of the war. As we know, for such a weapon to appear, two things are required: scientific developments and related industrial technologies. Did Germany have these two components?

In terms of the first component, the Germans obviously had an absolute priority. Back in 1938 the global scientific community was shaken by the news of the discovery of the German physicists Otto Hahn and Fritz Strassmann who found that the core of uranium isotope 235U is in an unstable condition and under certain environmental conditions can be divided into two parts, which release massive amounts of energy. This means that the Germans were the pioneers in the field of nuclear energy.

A little later, on Sept. 26, 1939, in Berlin, the department of military weapons held a meeting of the leading German physicists. Among others, the meeting was attended by such famous scientists as the founder of modern quantum mechanics Werner Heisenberg and Carl von Weizsacker, who described the fusion occurring in the interiors of stars. As a result, Germany has commenced the so-called "Uranium Project", whose goal was to create the first nuclear reactor. That is, the theoretical basis for research was very strong. However, the practical implementation has apparently never happened.

Why not? First, because construction of a reactor requires uranium in pure form and large quantities. Germany barely has any deposits. At Czechoslovakia's Jáchymov field controlled by the Germans since 1938, the uranium compounds were quite difficult to separate from other metals contained in the ore (according to Soviet experts who studied Jáchymov ore after the war, from 16 tons of rock one could get no more than four to six tons of uranium). This uranium was sufficient for laboratory tests, but not enough to create a reactor.

It was also said that after the seizure of 1,200 tons of finished ore concentrate of uranium oxide produced in Belgium were at the disposal of the Germans. However, it seems that the Germans never used it. According to the reports from the U.S. and Soviet military, nearly the same amount of material was diverted to the U.S. and the USSR after the defeat of Germany, and it was the same Belgian uranium.

But there is more to it. To make nuclear fuel it is not enough to clear uranium from impurities. Studies show that for experiments with nuclear reactors, uranium metal was required that in turn necessitated the development of a technology for its casting. The engineering firm Degussa was tasked with it, but they were able to produce uranium metal only by December of 1944. That is, the trials on the island of Rügen that took place according to Karlsh in the late summer of that year could not involve an atomic bomb because there were simply no required raw materials.

However, the introduction of the technology and casting of uranium does not lead to the creation of an atomic bomb. Natural uranium at 99.3 percent consists of the isotope 238U, which is quite stable, and for the nuclear fuel its unstable "brother" 235U is used. To obtain it, uranium is enriched by special devices. These experimental devices have been found in German laboratories by the Soviet and American specialists, but those that could carry out enrichment on an industrial scale have not been found (no technical documentation to support their presence was found either).

Apparently, despite the existence of the scientific equipment, the Germans did not succeed in the implementation of the idea of ​​the atomic bomb. Interestingly enough, a Soviet specialist Kikoin working on the domestic "uranium project," who in 1945 acted as an expert on German nuclear research, said: "... Among the secret documents we found, was the uranium project. We were not mistaken, and Kaiser-Institute was fundamental in this issue. According to the reviewed documents, it became clear that the Germans did not outrun us, on the contrary, they had a very low scientific and technological level in terms of questions presenting interest for us.

However, they have experimentally observed the beginning of a chain reaction (neutron multiplication). As a moderator they used heavy water obtained from Norway. We found two five-liter cans of heavy water labeled Norsk Hydro. We also found some metallic uranium and several kilograms of uranium oxide.

We dismantled and sent to Moscow some of the remaining in the Kaiser-Institute equipment (electrical, instrumentation). Some very simple isotope separators we also sent to Moscow ..."

The German scientists who worked on the "uranium project" repeatedly said that creation of a nuclear bomb would require a great deal of time which Germany did not have. Werner Heisenberg in a conversation with Niels Bohr in 1941 said that the creation of nuclear weapons in Germany was possible in principle, but it would require such extraordinary technical efforts, that it would not be able to implement during that war.

However, later created myth that Germany still has nuclear weapons turned out to be extremely tenacious, like many other myths about the extraordinary achievements of the scientists of the Third Reich. But the atomic bomb is not created by the Nazis.
February 25th, 2012  
tazjet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
I disagree, Werner Heisenberg was unaware as the secret recordings of his discussions showed he had not figured out the calculations to successfully trigger an explosion. Further to this Niels Bohr refutes many of Heisenbergs claims about being anti-Nazi.
You are clearly unaware that Professor Fritz Houtermanns who worked in the Reichsforschungsrat RFR laboratory of Prof Barn Manfred von Ardenne already accurately calculated the critical mass for uranium 235 and Plutonium 239 (which Nazis called Eka Osmium) in late 1941.

Japanese scientists accurately calculated the correct neutron multiplication factor for Uranium 235 in October 1940.

Heisenberg was aware of Houtermann's calculations but he was a man so driven by his own excessive ego that he dismissed the findings of Houtermans and persisted in pursuit of his own blunders.

Heisenberg was not at the forefront on Nazi nuclear technology nor was he the leader of the Nazi military atomic bomb project.
February 25th, 2012  
tazjet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LEG
The Nazi Nuke operated on what we now call 'Isomer' technology for such is what 'Deutron Beams' really comes down to.

After taking the temperature down with canned nitrogen or even air (to increase the cross-section of th atoms), the weapon compressed a gelled plasmoid of Thorium derived U233 (as Xerum 525 which was radioactively _very_ 'hot' thanks to the Beryllium additives) and parafin, likely contained in thin layers between a graphite or cadmium inhibitors.

The 'bazooka' system was a dual core system with explosives INSIDE as well as outside the core, to keep total volumes low.

This is why Hans Schlicke (from memory), a fuze expert, was bringing IR photoelectric fuses to Japan on U-234 and why the U.S. fuse engineer who was responsible for the Plutonium bomb fusing was part of the interrogation team that 'debriefed' him, a fortnight before the Trinity test device was suddenly remilled to incorporate holes for IR floodlighting of the core cavity.

The Nazi uranium bomb used implosion technology, not gun.

Such a system compressed the U233 to a point where shape compression became spin release as a massive flood of X-Rays.

Lithium Deuteride, the fuel material inside modern fusion weapons (and refined by Manfred Von Ardenne, beginning in 1943) was subsequently induced to fuse by this release and it's own thermal/G-Ray spike -could- be directed to induce a secondary, down a long tamper.
.
I think you have just cut n paste a whole lot of stuff that you don't even understand from multiple sources. Whether you have done this to impress or confuse, attempt to impress bewilders me but your post is nonsense.

For example a long tamper is reference to the holraum effect harnessed for thermonuclear Plutonium H-bombs and had nothing to do with the Nazi A-bomb.

Xerum 525 was a compound of Thorium and Beryllium in Heavy Paraffin used in a particle accelerator and these compounds were prepared at a laboratory in Danzig for a Nuclear project at Breslau. It was not used in the Schumann / Trinks bomb design at all.
February 25th, 2012  
tazjet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by r.fox
thats the point i am trying to make, that the Germans didn't have a plane that could carry a 13 tonne pay load. the only way the americans could bomb hiroshima and nagasaki was because the us bombs only weighed about 4 tonnes
The Ju-390 was certified in April 1944 to carry 10,000 kilograms over 8,000 nautical miles, but that is not the point r fox.

You miss the point entirely that Schumann and Trinks developed a tactical nuclear warhead which weighed just 5 kilograms and was thus able to be delivered by V-2 rocket or by the bomber version of the Me-262 fighter which Hitler insisted upon. Have you never wondered why Hitler ordered the Me-262 fighter be developed as a bomber when in that role it never had a bomb sight for delivery?

Have you ever wondered why the He-277 was ordered with an ability to bomb the UK from altitudes of 49,000 feet where bombing accuracy is so poor?

The answer is that with a bomb load of small nukes one did not need accuracy.

It is all irrelevant now anyway since the truth of WW2 is that Churchill threatened to drop Anthrax before Hitler was ready for his offensive. Anthrax would have starved the German nation into submission in under two weeks.

In May 1944 the super secret high altitude B-29 was flown to England and given massive press coverage to intimidate Hitler.

If you bother to read Prof Harteck's comments to Heisenberg in Farm Hall transcripts you will also learn that they discussed how USA threatened to nuke Dresden in July 1944 unless Hitler sued for peace and that is the true version of how WW2 ended. Via secret surrender talks Hitler tried to talk his way out and obtain an armistice with western allies.
February 25th, 2012  
tazjet
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
I agree I do not believe Germany was anywhere near producing a working atomic weapon but I don't for a second believe that if Germany had a bomb it would have been used in the West I believe that he would have turned it against the Russians in seconds flat so whether they had an aircraft capable of transatlantic flight or not is in my opinion senseless.
Not correct... Hitler intended a massive counter offensive for October 1944 using huge stockpiles of Tabun-B nerve gas prepared at Dhyrenfurth in Silesia. These would be fired from artillery shells or as payload in V-1 buzz bombs against the west and the east. From evidence of secretly recorded conversations, General Dornberger disclosed that Hitler had intended to use warheads on the V-2 considerably more powerful than one ton of TNT.

These recorded conversation transcripts gathered from Dornberger's post war internment at CSDIC camp 11 were tabled in evidence at Nuremburg and are available for researchers.

Against New York by late 1944 the idea to use a conventional aircraft like the Ju-390 was abandoned in favour of other delivery systems like the winged A-4b with Fernrakete 35 solid propellant boosters fitted. Also contemplated was the Trommsdorf D-6000 transatlantic ramjet cruise missile. Before any of this was available however Hitler was already intimidated into surrender talks.
February 25th, 2012  
VDKMS
 
@ tazjet

from where do you have that information?
 


Similar Topics
Spread Of Nuclear Capability Is Feared
Arabs Make Plans For Nuclear Power
A World Free Of Nuclear Weapons
Congress OKs Nuclear Pact With India
U.S. Seeks To Make Stolen Nukes Useless