Waffen SS (Moved from the mottos forum)




 
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March 13th, 2010  
JoePeiper
 
 

Topic: Waffen SS (Moved from the mottos forum)


Quote:
Originally Posted by captiva303
i don't like the SS...

but it is an alright motto, pitty they took it a little to literally...
Interesting. Politics aside, I believe the Waffen SS was a superior fighting force, especially during that time period. They were in superior athletic shape, and fiercely loyal to their superiors. I know some say they were "fanatical", but to me, that just shows they were extremely dedicated, and extremely loyal!.......Hence, "Meine Ehre Heisst Treue"!

I don't see anything wrong with their motto. I actually think those are exceptional words to live by, no matter who you are, or what army/organization you belong to.
But, that's just my humble opinion.
March 13th, 2010  
Chukpike
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoePeiper
Interesting. Politics aside, I believe the Waffen SS was a superior fighting force, especially during that time period. They were in superior athletic shape, and fiercely loyal to their superiors. I know some say they were "fanatical", but to me, that just shows they were extremely dedicated, and extremely loyal!.......Hence, "Meine Ehre Heisst Treue"!

I don't see anything wrong with their motto. I actually think those are exceptional words to live by, no matter who you are, or what army/organization you belong to.
But, that's just my humble opinion.
If you consider soldiers who spent time murdering unarmed prisoners as a superior fighting force, then whatever floats your boat.

Also their loyalty was to Hitler and not the country. I guess if you are into fanatical dictators you could appreciate the motto.

I suspect you don't know much about them, and just think their uniforms are cool.
March 13th, 2010  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chukpike
If you consider soldiers who spent time murdering unarmed prisoners as a superior fighting force, then whatever floats your boat.
Do you have any sources to back the claim that they were were all (or even a majority) involved in murdering unarmed prisoners?

Quote:
Also their loyalty was to Hitler and not the country. I guess if you are into fanatical dictators you could appreciate the motto.
This I agree with although the motto does not specifically state that they are loyal to anything in particular.

Quote:
I suspect you don't know much about them, and just think their uniforms are cool.
I am not sure he is the only one in this category as there were multiple arms of the SS with the Waffen SS being little more than frontline soldiers and it is difficult to lump them in with either the Allgemeine SS or the SS-Totenkopfverbände (who ran the concentration camps).
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March 13th, 2010  
Chukpike
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Do you have any sources to back the claim that they were were all (or even a majority) involved in murdering unarmed prisoners?
First I don't need a source as I never claimed "they were were all (or even a majority) involved in murdering unarmed prisoners?"

Second: You asking for sources is close to the funniest thing I have ever heard.

But to humour you here is a source:
  • The Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler under Obergruppenführer [11] Josef "Sepp" Dietrich.
  • The Inspectorate of Verfügungstruppe under Brigadeführer Paul Hausser which commanded the Deutschland, Germania and Der Führer regiments, the last recruited in Austria after the Anschluss and not yet combat-ready.[12]
  • The Inspectorate of Concentration Camps under Gruppenführer Theodor Eicke which fielded four infantry and one cavalry Death's-Head Standarten, comprising camp guards of the SS-Totenkopfverbände. These troops wore the SS-TV skull and crossbones rather than the SS-VT "SS" runes.
  • Combat-trained non-SS units of Obergruppenführer und General der Polizei Kurt Daluege's Ordnungspolizei, which reported to Himmler in his capacity as Chief of German Police. These troops used police ranks and insignia rather than those of the SS.
These formations would become the basis of the Waffen-SS.

.......

Because it was more mobile and better able to carry out large-scale operations, the SS Cavalry Brigade played a pivotal role in the transition from "selective mass murder" to the wholesale extermination of the Jewish population.[36] On 27 July, the Brigade was ordered into action, and by 1 August the SS Cavalry Regiment was responsible for the death of 800 people; five days later, on 6 August, this total had reached 3,000 "Jews and Partisans".[37] On 1 August, after a meeting between Heinrich Himmler, Erich von Bach-Zelewski and Hinrich Lohse, the brigades received the following order:
Explicit order by RFSS: All Jews must be shot. Drive the female Jews into the swamps.[38]
Gustav Lombard, on receiving the order, advised his Battalion that "In future not one male Jew is to remain alive, not one family in the villages."[38] Throughout the next weeks, soldiers of SS Cavalry Regiment 1 under Lombard's command murdered an estimated 11,000 Jews and more than 400 dispersed soldiers of the Red Army.[39]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS#World_War_II

If you want to paint the Waffen SS as a bunch of noble choir boys that is your problem.

And the next time I ask you for a source please honor the request.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
This I agree with although the motto does not specifically state that they are loyal to anything in particular.



I am not sure he is the only one in this category as there were multiple arms of the SS with the Waffen SS being little more than frontline soldiers and it is difficult to lump them in with either the Allgemeine SS or the SS-Totenkopfverbände (who ran the concentration camps).
And I did not, as the Waffen SS included all the SS.
March 13th, 2010  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chukpike

And I did not, as the Waffen SS included all the SS.
This is incorrect, the Waffen SS were the military branch of the SS only, my understanding is that the SS was reorganised into the 3 separate branches in 1935-36 but in 1939 Hitler merged the Totenkopfverbände and Allgemeine.

Had you been talking about the overall Schutzstaffel you possibly would have been correct as they all had the same motto but as you specifically stated Waffen SS I think it safe to say that you have it backwards, the SS included the Waffen SS not the other way around.

Here is the organisational chart for the SS, the Waffen SS is the box at the very bottom right labelled SS-Verfügungstruppe.



Concentration camp guards and "special units" are in the box next to them marked SS-Totenkopfverbände.

The "General SS" which was mainly administrative, part time and Reserve, honorary or otherwise non-active SS members is the box at the bottom on the left labelled Allgemeine SS.
March 13th, 2010  
Chukpike
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
This is incorrect, the Waffen SS were the military branch of the SS only, my understanding is that the SS was reorganised into the 3 separate branches in 1935-36 but in 1939 Hitler merged the Totenkopfverbände and Allgemeine.

Had you been talking about the overall Schutzstaffel you possibly would have been correct as they all had the same motto but as you specifically stated Waffen SS I think it safe to say that you have it backwards, the SS included the Waffen SS not the other way around.

Here is the organisational chart for the SS, the Waffen SS is the box at the very bottom right labelled SS-Verfügungstruppe.



Concentration camp guards and "special units" are in the box next to them marked SS-Totenkopfverbände.

The "General SS" which was mainly administrative, part time and Reserve, honorary or otherwise non-active SS members is the box at the bottom on the left labelled Allgemeine SS.
Don't care what "your understanding" is, please supply verifiable sources other than German cartoons, as I did. Also, the cartoons supplied do not show the complete command structure up to Hitler or when these diagrams were made.

After all, you did not except my understanding.
March 14th, 2010  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chukpike
Don't care what "your understanding" is, please supply verifiable sources other than German cartoons, as I did. Also, the cartoons supplied do not show the complete command structure up to Hitler or when these diagrams were made.

After all, you did not except my understanding.
Well you want a complete structure, ok that isn't a problem.

See right at the top of the page a box marked "Der Reichfurher SS"?

Put one more box above it that says "Der Furher"

All done.

Any other questions?

As far as my "understanding" goes the only thing I am not sure of is whether the formation was 1935 or 1936 as orders to do this were given in 1935 but were not completed until 1936.
March 14th, 2010  
Chukpike
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Well you want a complete structure, ok that isn't a problem.

See right at the top of the page a box marked "Der Reichfurher SS"?

Put one more box above it that says "Der Furher"

All done.

Any other questions?

As far as my "understanding" goes the only thing I am not sure of is whether the formation was 1935 or 1936 as orders to do this were given in 1935 but were not completed until 1936.
I take it you do not intend to supply sources. As I expected.
See post #6:

"Second: You asking for sources is close to the funniest thing I have ever heard." quote chukpike
Since you refuse to supply any when requested.

No sources, no credibility.
I guess your understanding ignores the facts;


"Many Waffen-SS members and units were responsible for war crimes. For members who did not take part in them, they had to face the fact there was a "guilt by association" that attached. After the war the Schutzstaffel organisation as a whole was held to be a criminal organization by the post-war German government, due to the undeniable evidence that it was responsible for serious war crimes. Formations such as the Dirlewanger and Kaminski Brigades were singled out, and many others were involved in large-scale massacres or smaller-scale atrocities such as the Houtman affair.[125] In the West the most infamous incidents included the following:
March 17th, 2010  
Doppleganger
 
 
I think Monty's trying to illustrate the point that the Waffen SS in general could be separated from the Security SS by way of their role and duties. The Waffen SS were the unofficial fourth arm of the Wehrmacht and were organised into the Heer OOB. For the most part they were clearly distinct from the Security SS and there isn't a Waffen SS formation in existence that wasn't ultimately commanded by a Heer commander.

The Waffen SS were no innocent, honorable soldiers, although on many occasions they fought with honour and almost always with bravery. They committed attrocites but then so did the regular Heer, so did the Red Army, the Polish Army, the French Army, the British Army, the American Army, the Japanese Army. There isn't an army in any major conflict that doesn't have an element of atrocities attached to it. That happens to be the very sad nature of war.

Of course some units of the Waffen SS had their origins in the more political units of the SS. That's unavoidable if you ask me, seeing as the organisation started out as a purely political organ. That doesn't mean to say that later on a distinct line couldn't be drawn between their duties and those SS formations that undertook camp security and rear echelon duties. There are many instances of Waffen SS units distinguishing themselves in combat. Like II SS Panzer Korps at Kharkov and Kursk.
March 18th, 2010  
Chukpike
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger
I think Monty's trying to illustrate the point that the Waffen SS in general could be separated from the Security SS by way of their role and duties. The Waffen SS were the unofficial fourth arm of the Wehrmacht and were organised into the Heer OOB. For the most part they were clearly distinct from the Security SS and there isn't a Waffen SS formation in existence that wasn't ultimately commanded by a Heer commander.

The Waffen SS were no innocent, honorable soldiers, although on many occasions they fought with honour and almost always with bravery. They committed attrocites but then so did the regular Heer, so did the Red Army, the Polish Army, the French Army, the British Army, the American Army, the Japanese Army. There isn't an army in any major conflict that doesn't have an element of atrocities attached to it. That happens to be the very sad nature of war.

Of course some units of the Waffen SS had their origins in the more political units of the SS. That's unavoidable if you ask me, seeing as the organisation started out as a purely political organ. That doesn't mean to say that later on a distinct line couldn't be drawn between their duties and those SS formations that undertook camp security and rear echelon duties. There are many instances of Waffen SS units distinguishing themselves in combat. Like II SS Panzer Korps at Kharkov and Kursk.
Monty is in denial, he went all Storm Trooper on me when I first mentioned the Waffen SS were not choir boys:

"If you consider soldiers who spent time murdering unarmed prisoners as a superior fighting force, then whatever floats your boat."

From the above statement he demanded I supply sources to prove that:

"Do you have any sources to back the claim that they were were all (or even a majority) involved in murdering unarmed prisoners?" quote MontyB

Something I never said.

It is still my opinion they were sleaze bags and by the end of the war 1/3 were not German. They were not loyal to Germany they swore their Loyalty to a fanatic.

You are delusional if you think the Brittish, French, and US troops ever committed any attrocities to compare with the Nazis.

Don't you think the, "it is OK because everyone was doing it", excuse is kind of lame, besides being untrue.
 


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