USS Liberty - Israel's "War of Self Defense" - Page 3




 
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June 4th, 2009  
mmarsh
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KJ
Rumor was among the secret squrrel guys that it was done on purpose to keep the americans in the dark about how far the ground war had taken the Israeli troops.
The fear was that the americans would preasure Israel to cancel ground action before the Israelis had reached their objectives.

Lets face it, Israel doesn´t to a whole lot without the support of the US.
I never bought the accident story for a single second. This is exactly why I dont like the government of Isreal, because they have proven time and time again that they will stab you in the back if its in their interest to do so. Whether its to brazenly spy on you (which they have done at least twice) sell your tech to hostile nations (like the Lavi deal to China) or even attack you. With friends like this who needs enemies?

DISCLAIMER: My dislike extends only to the Isreali government, not the country, people, culture nor am even questioning its existense. I am not "country-bashing" only criticizing the way the Isreali government treats other people and countries.
June 6th, 2009  
EladBell
 
 
well...it will not be an objective opinion but here goes.
being the only state for jews around the world i think that Israel is very concered about all kinds of things happenning...now i remember some story about that and i really dont know what happend thre...and as u all say its all a bunch of speculasions..i belive though that if a country would want to board or sink a patroling UNARMED ship it could do so with ease...it would not need two attempts to board it and i hope u agree with me.
about the whole inccident it is very wierd that these kind of thing happend at all...but im sure that both sides has thier own reason for covering the story up,becasue after all,all we know is a fraction of the real events.
about what mmarsh said ,i dont know what u mean by stabing u in the back...can u please explaine?
are u talking about the day Israel stole few destroyers?
about using inteligence gathered by other countries to defend it self?

as i said this is not a real objective opinoin,bt nither were yours:P
June 7th, 2009  
SHERMAN
 
 
This topic is rapidly deterirating. Unless someone has actuall facts we cant reach the truth. I have no doubt that Israel, like any other country, can easily act against its allies. mmarsh, if you think that its just Israel, you have some reading to do. Actually, dont read too much, go as far as Obamas actions over the last week and you will see how easily friends are forgotten in real-politics.

However, to this day I was given a good reason for Israel to attack a US ship. Israel was always fearfull of fighting superpowers. Even fighting the Brits or French scared us. The lenghts to which Israel went to evoid combat with the Russians are emazing. So, why attack a US ship?
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June 7th, 2009  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SHERMAN
However, to this day I was given a good reason for Israel to attack a US ship. Israel was always fearfull of fighting superpowers. Even fighting the Brits or French scared us. The lenghts to which Israel went to evoid combat with the Russians are emazing. So, why attack a US ship?
That is hardly a question for the forum members, you would have to ask those in the attacking forces at the time.

From all I have read from those present on BOTH sides, it was painfully obvious that the Israelis were perfectly aware of what they were doing.

Quote:
Fifteen years after the attack, an Israeli pilot approached Liberty survivors and then held extensive interviews with former Congressman Paul N. (Pete) McCloskey about his role. According to this senior Israeli lead pilot, he recognized the Liberty as American immediately, so informed his headquarters, and was told to ignore the American flag and continue his attack. He refused to do so and returned to base, where he was arrested.

Later, a dual-citizen Israeli major told survivors that he was in an Israeli war room where he heard that pilot's radio report. The attacking pilots and everyone in the Israeli war room knew that they were attacking an American ship, the major said. He recanted the statement only after he received threatening phone calls from Israel.

The pilot's protests also were heard by radio monitors in the U.S. Embassy in Lebanon. Then-U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon Dwight Porter has confirmed this. Porter told his story to syndicated columnists Rowland Evans and Robert Novak and offered to submit to further questioning by authorities. Unfortunately, no one in the U.S. government has any interest in hearing these first-person accounts of Israeli treachery. [Washington Report]
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHART...ssliberty.html
June 8th, 2009  
mmarsh
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SHERMAN
This topic is rapidly deterirating. Unless someone has actuall facts we cant reach the truth. I have no doubt that Israel, like any other country, can easily act against its allies. mmarsh, if you think that its just Israel, you have some reading to do. Actually, dont read too much, go as far as Obamas actions over the last week and you will see how easily friends are forgotten in real-politics.

However, to this day I was given a good reason for Israel to attack a US ship. Israel was always fearfull of fighting superpowers. Even fighting the Brits or French scared us. The lenghts to which Israel went to evoid combat with the Russians are emazing. So, why attack a US ship?
Well its going to be hard to produce concrete evidence to any arguement as much of the evidence has been surpressed. I have never heard of the French or British firing on a US ship, or inflitrating its secret agencies. You cannot justify bad behavior with even more bad behavior. If they have done so then at least they smart enough not to get caught. And as terms as US-Isreali relations go, being that the US has done quite a lot for Israel I think such behavior its demonstrating a severe lack of gratitude, that's why people like me get angry. Lets be honest. Isreal doesn't have alot of friends in the world. Does it really want to go around pissing off the few remaining ones it has left? Is that really whats in its best interest? And as you pointed out, the New Administration is a lot less sympathetic than the last one was.

But getting back to the USS Liberty, I can answer your question very easily as to why Isreal avoided combat with the USSR, and not America? The answer is because they knew that if the ever attempted to attack a USSR ship (espicially if it resulted in the deaths of Soviet military personnel) the Soviets would have retaliated immediately and with overwhelming force that not even America could have done anything to stop it. Whereas thanks to the political stranglehold groups like AIPAC have on Washington DC, they had absolutely nothing to fear in terms of an American response. As a matter of the USA was probably the only country in NATO that wouldn't have retaliated.

If you look up the evidence, its very hard to believe the attack was accidental. I mean some of the excuses are simply silly. Like that the IDF mistook the USS Liberty for a Egyptian ship 1/3 its size. The claim that there was no ensign at the time of the attack, the fact that the Isrealis made no attempt to ID the ship, even though Identification runs had been made by IAF jets 2 days previously. Everything points to a deliberate attack.
June 9th, 2009  
MontyB
 
 
Well as much as I agree with you on most aspects you still havent answered the one important question:

Why?

There are really only two possible answers:
1) To prevent it gathering information on Israeli progress which to me seems extreme given that they were biting the hand that feeds.

2) It was an accident that they decided to cover up, perhaps they did mistake it for an Egyptian vessel initially and then realised their mistake and felt that if they finished the job they could have plausible deny ability and point the finger at the Egyptians.

I really dont know, I could accept a mistaken ID for the opening attack but the continued attacks make this scenario less likely.
June 9th, 2009  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
I really dont know, I could accept a mistaken ID for the opening attack but the continued attacks make this scenario less likely.
For what my experience is worth, I have never, ever, seen a merchant ship of any nationality painted "haze grey". On top of this is the fact that the Liberty was known to be in the area by the Israelis, and 4 times the tonnage of of the ship it was allegedly mistaken for. Photographs of the attacking aircraft indicate that a true case of mistaken identity would have been all but impossible at the ranges involved.

My personal opinion is that it was a deliberate and planned attempt to frame the Egyptians, thereby bringing the US into the war on the side of the Israelis. This is further supported by the fact that several survivors stated that the aircraft were without markings.

Quote:
Moorer, who as top legal council to the official investigation is in a position to know, agrees that Israel intended to sink the USS Liberty and blame Egypt for it, thus dragging the United States into a war on Israel's behalf. This seems to be a common trick of Israel. Starting with the Lavon affair, through the USS Liberty, to the fake radio transmitter that tricked Reagan into attacking Libya , to potentially 9-11 itself , Israel's game is to frame Arabs and set them up as targets for the United States.
June 9th, 2009  
Wallabies
 
Quote:
This topic is rapidly deterirating. Unless someone has actuall facts we cant reach the truth. I have no doubt that Israel, like any other country, can easily act against its allies. mmarsh, if you think that its just Israel, you have some reading to do. Actually, dont read too much, go as far as Obamas actions over the last week and you will see how easily friends are forgotten in real-politics.
This wasn't politics. 34 dead 171 wounded.



The USS Liberty was first identified as a destroyer. http://unitedstatesnavy.fotopic.net/p57579675.html

Big difference.

June 9th, 2009  
SHERMAN
 
 
Quote:
My personal opinion is that it was a deliberate and planned attempt to frame the Egyptians, thereby bringing the US into the war on the side of the Israelis. This is further supported by the fact that several survivors stated that the aircraft were without markings.
I hardly see the point....Considering Israel was already winning the war.

Quote:
This wasn't politics. 34 dead 171 wounded.
The ammount of Israelis who may get hurt as a result of Obamas attitude could be far greater.

Again, I dont know anyone who was involved, and I wouldent put it beyond some members of the Israeli cabinet in 1967 to try some wierd stuff like that.

BUT...The Israeli minister of Defence Moshe Dayan was very timid of confrontation with any super power. Hell, he dident even want to attack Syria, he thought Syria and Egypt togather were too much...
June 9th, 2009  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
My personal opinion is that it was a deliberate and planned attempt to frame the Egyptians, thereby bringing the US into the war on the side of the Israelis. This is further supported by the fact that several survivors stated that the aircraft were without markings.

The problem with this is that theoretically they were already on the Israeli side so why take the risk alienating your only supporter?

This is why I lean toward the initial attack being the result of misidentifying the vessel and the rest being an "oh crap we screwed up" scenario probably at a much lower level than diplomatic ones.