USS Liberty - Israel's "War of Self Defense" - Page 24




 
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December 26th, 2009  
3dgeo
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
That may be the case but I have read reports of it being anywhere between 150 and 1000 killed which indicates to me that something happened but there is more to it than we know and until I find something I consider both accurate and credible I will leave it on the list of "possible" events.

Also according to the "Convention on the Non-Applicability of Statutory Limitations to War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity (1968)" there is no Statute of Limitations on war crimes so while one country may have individual laws regarding this a suspected war criminal can still be arrested and tried should they leave the country.
War crimes should have no limitations,
but you cannot be presecuted in Israel for killing Non Israeli Jews.The system will go through the motions,but no real consequence is ever incurred on perpetrators.Unfortunately IDF military doctrine has always targetted non combattants. Benny Morris and Israel Shahaak,two Israeli historians have documented many cases since the birth of the Jewish state.
Certainly a double standard for a society that should know better.
Israeli officers are indeed getting nervous about travelling abroad now!
December 27th, 2009  
MontyB
 
 
Yes well this may be the case but we are moving off topic somewhat, I am hoping we can stay on the USS Liberty case rather than getting mired in Middle Eastern politics.

One thing I would like to have cleared up on the topic is this:
There are several reports of the Liberty being attacked by unmarked aircraft yet most of what I read in terms of the survivors say that they were Israeli aircraft.

Were the attackers marked or not?
I would personally see there more chance of this being an accident if the attackers were clearly marked than if they were not.
December 27th, 2009  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Yes well this may be the case but we are moving off topic somewhat, I am hoping we can stay on the USS Liberty case rather than getting mired in Middle Eastern politics.
By and large, I agree, that would make things much, much simpler,and we do tend to get off topic, but unfortunately to leave Middle eastern politics out of the mix, would be like trying to make an omelette, but not being allowed to use any eggs.
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December 27th, 2009  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
By and large, I agree, that would make things much, much simpler,and we do tend to get off topic, but unfortunately to leave Middle eastern politics out of the mix, would be like trying to make an omelette, but not being allowed to use any eggs.
All true but given that we do have the ability to make threads in other areas of the forum or on specific actions it seems a little pointless to ruin this thread.
December 27th, 2009  
greg2k
 
 
So we have a new question on USS Liberty? Looks like 3dgeo put new point of egyptian POW's during 1967 war in his Post #213. OK... it is a new revelation about massacre of egyptian soldiers...in 1956 and 1967 wars.Well what should we do....where to start...Well lets do this thing,what happened or not happened in 1956 war lets leave it for another forum,it doesn't belongs to USS Liberty case.
Now.....aah I recalled something,didn't I mention already somewhere Mr Bamford? wait a sec.... here he is in my post #91
Right it's him and his book is also there.The only problem is I made error,I said his book "Dead in the water",but actually the book name was "Body of Secrets : Anatomy of the Ultra-Secret National Security Agency" (April 24, 2001),and "Dead in the water" was a BBC TV documentary (21 August 2004),which mentioned his book.OK,so far so good,lets proceed.
First of all lets see who Mr Bamford is...ok the internet is saying till recently he was a Washington Investigative Producer for ABC's World News.OK.
So at this moment we can already say this,whatever he was saying about USS Liberty he was not eyewitness to the event,right? Yes he was a reporter not a sailor.OK.
Lets see what he said in his book: http://hnn.us/articles/191.html

'As the Liberty sat within eyeshot of El Arish, eavesdropping on surrounding communications, Israeli soldiers turned the town into a slaughterhouse, systematically butchering their prisoners. An eyewitness recounted how in the shadow of the El Arish mosque, they lined up about 60 unarmed Egyptian prisoners, hands tied behind their backs, and then opened fire with machine guns until the pale desert sand turned red.
This and other war crimes were just some of the secrets Israel had sought to conceal since the start of the conflict".

OK pay attention....in the shadow of the Mosque.....nice.So lets say you stay some half a mile from this place would you be able to see clearly what was going there in the shadow?...well.... and the USS Liberty was....14 miles from there...well.OK.
So Bamford was mentioning only 60 prisoners...,lets look on another website,very famous 'jew-loving' site: http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-atrociti...erty.html,what they say,we all are curious ,aren't we?

"Historian Gabby Bron wrote in the Yediot Ahronot in Israel that he witnessedIsraeli troopsexecuting Egyptian prisoners on the morning of June 8, 1967, in the Sinaitown of El Arish.
Bron reported that he saw about 150 Egyptian POWs being held at the ElArish airport wherethey were sitting on the ground, densely crowded together with their handsheld on the back oftheir necks. Every few minutes, Bron writes, Israeli soldiers would escortan Egyptian POW fromthe group to a hearing conducted by two men in Israeli army uniforms. Thenthe man would betaken away, given a spade, and forced to dig his own grave.
"I watched as (one) man dug a hole for about 15 minutes," Bronwrote. "Afterwards, the (Israelimilitary) policeman told him to throw the shovel away, and then one of themleveled an Uzi at himand shot two short bursts, each of three or four bullets."
Bron says he witnessed about ten such executions, until the grave wasfilled. Then an IsraeliColonel threatened him with a revolver, forcing him to leave the area".

Well,....the prisoners were diging even their own graves...(pay attention execution in the morning of Jun 8 1967) and their number already incresed to 150. And what time attack on USS Liberty took place? 2PM local time right? And where was USS Liberty in the morning of June8? Only God knows....OK,so far so good.... We are getting closer to somewhere... Continue.next post
December 27th, 2009  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by greg2k
Well,....the prisoners were diging even their graves...and their number already incresed to 150. OK,so far so good.... We are getting closer to somehere... Continue.next post
That would be OK, but how about, when you do continue, you don't underline every word please. People might read it then.
December 27th, 2009  
greg2k
 
 
Lets see what another website is saying- http://www.washington-report.org/bac.../9602017.html:
Dr. Yitzhaki reports that Palestinian volunteers in the Egyptian army were executed Nazi-style in E1-Arish, another area of the Sinai, in 1967. Gabby Biron, a right-wing journalist who witnessed the murder of about 10 POWs before being forced to leave, confirmed Yitzhaki's report. Biron says that Israeli intelligence officers put POWs one by one through a short interrogation. If the IDF determined by the prisoner's accent that he was Palestinian, he was taken behind the building, forced to dig his own grave, and shot.
Lets find out who was Arieh Yitzhaki.According to website - http://www.fas.org/sgp/eprint/bamford.html:
The following is from an article ("HISTORIAN ALLEGES POW DEATHS IN 1956, 1967") posted by the Jewish Telegraph Agency on August 17, 1995:
"An Israeli military historian has said he knew of hundreds of Egyptian prisoners of war who were killed during the 1967 Six-Day War by Israel Defense Force troops, including a unit headed by the current Israeli housing minister. Military historian Aryeh Yitzhaki of Bar-Illan University told Israel Radio on Wednesday that the killings involved a crack unit led by now Housing Minister Binyamin Ben-Eliezer. Yitzhaki said the executions of 300 to 400 Egyptian commandos in El Arish was the worse case he knew, given that many of the Egyptians had surrendered. They were killed by members of the Shaked commando unit under the command of Ben-Eliezer, a lieutenant colonel at the time, he said. Ben-Eliezer said he was unaware of any prisoner killings.
"Referring to the Six-Day War, Yitzhaki said not only were the executions known, but a report he prepared in 1968 on the deaths was not released under instructions from higher authorities. Responding to the reports, Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin said he thought such incidents were exceptions to the norm and that they should be condemned by all."
So we can see here that the number of egyptian POW's who were killed increase already to...(pay attention)... 300-400,according to claim by Yitzhaki.
The following is from a front page article ("DEBATE TAINTING IMAGE OF PURITY WRENCHES ISRAELIS: A MORE OPEN SOCIETY TAKES UP KILLING OF POWS DURING WARS") in The Washington Post on August 19, 1995:
"This week, as more soldiers came forward to say they saw fellow Israelis kill unarmed enemies in decades past, a long-suppressed public reckoning began. The stakes are profound for an army whose "purity of arms" has been the core of its self-image through five wars. . . . Also Wednesday, military historian Arye Yitzhaki of Bar Ilan University accused a storied reconnaissance unit, known as Shaked (Almond), of killing hundreds of Egyptians who had abandoned their weapons and fled into the desert in the 1967 Middle East war. . . . One day after Yitzhaki's charge came a first-person account by Gabi Brun of Yedioth Aharonoth, the country's most widely read tabloid. He wrote of watching Israeli troops execute five Egyptian prisoners in the Sinai Desert town of El Arish in 1967. The first of the five, he wrote, was forced to dig the grave. Each of them in turn was shot dead in it.
So we can see here that Bron saw five (pay attention not 10) POW'S were killed.
As we see now Bron,who claimed to be eyewitness to the murder, confirmed the word of Yitzhaki who was not an eyewintness to the murder,but his report proves only 5 dead POW's сompare to 300-400 dead POW's claimed by Yitzhaki.OK,so far so good lets continue.....
So now it becomes more clear to us from what sources Mr Bamford got the information about egyptian POW's.The sources for his book "Вody of secrets'(2001) were informations from Yitzhaki and Bron(1995).OK.good.

Now lets go to our friends -sailors of USS Liberty and try to figure out what they saw: http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-atrocities-uss-liberty.html
That's what Lt James M. Ennes, Jr. writes:
USS Liberty was nearby
As those executions were underway, America's most sophisticated intelligenceplatform, USSLiberty, was less than 13 miles from El Arish.
We were close enough to see the town mosque with the naked eye. Withbinoculars we couldmake out individual buildings and might have seen the executions if we hadlooked in the rightplace.
Could our operators have heard voice radio messages revealing these killings?Did senior Israeliofficers sanction the murders, or did they learn of them? How would theyhave reacted to theknowledge that USS Liberty was nearby and might have heard incriminatingradio traffic?
Would they have been desperate enough to attack an American ship? OK,very good.
So what Lt Ennes revealed to us....well he revealed to us that...they were close,they saw the Mosque, and they could see the murder if....they would look in the right direction.
The question now is: did they look in the right direction? Well ,they were looking in the right direction according to information from Bamford in Post #235.Sailors were looking directly on the Mosque.So why they did not see the POW'S there?
Well.....hehehehe... because the POW's were actually in the shadow according to Bamford in Post #235 and behind the Mosque wall,according to Bron in Post #237.OK lets continue.....
Now lets concentrate on Bron,what he claims next- http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_co..._article=1099:
Genuine scholars might have wanted to ask Bron exactly what he had witnessed, and whether, as claimed by others, he had really seen a massacre. Needless to say, the authors didn't do this. However, historian Michael Oren, researching the 1967 war, did ring up Gabi Bron. He wasn't that hard to find, having become over the years a rather prominent journalist in Israel. And here, according to Oren, is what Bron had to say:
"The one hundred and fifty POW's were not shot and there were no mass murders...In fact,we helped prisoners,gave them water,and in most cases sent them in the direction of the Suez Canal".(New Republic,July 23, 2001).
So we can see Mr Bron said himself,right after the book of Bamford was published,and denied all allegations about him,that he saw the murders of egyptian POW's in 1967,what Washighton Post and jewwatch.com website wrote about him.
Mr Bron clearly removed the cards from the hands of Mr Bamford and USS Liberty and left them with red faces.Another attempt by USS Liberty supporters to incriminate Israel in War Crimes ended in failure.
December 27th, 2009  
senojekips
 
 
I have created a new thread to try to save this one from being closed for going too far off Topic. Israel, Heroes or Terrorists.
December 27th, 2009  
3dgeo
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EladBell
this is a price i am willing to pay!
as i said i dont look for your understanding,untill your frind will go on a bus and die in that bus from explotion u cant know us.
and we dont expect you to.
say whatever u want,but my country is surrouned by more than 5 enemies,it needs its strong army.

and please stop talking about rules in war...
look at afghanistan...what the hell are u looking there????
sending haundrends of thousedns of soldiers and killing whatever comes in sight.
if i could take u with me to an arrest in the west bank or in gaza i would so u could actually know what we do so innocent souls would not geet hurt.
but even then u would not agree.


by the way
Hamas,hezbollah el qaida and fataah never singed the Goneva conention....and they dont seem to be any closer to act like that.

first let the dearest Gilad Shalit getmedical care from the red cross than talk about humanity.

band of hypocrits.
The US TAXPAYER is picking up the bill.That's the point!
Dearest Gilad Shalit's artlillrey unit was shelling Gaza before he was captured.He's a Prisoner of war.
There are 10,000 Palestinian prisoners in Israeli camps.
500 of which are women and children.
Torture is LEGAL in Israeli custody.

www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1906664,00.html


December 27th, 2009  
3dgeo
 
 

Topic: It's all related in mideast politics!


Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Yes well this may be the case but we are moving off topic somewhat, I am hoping we can stay on the USS Liberty case rather than getting mired in Middle Eastern politics.

One thing I would like to have cleared up on the topic is this:
There are several reports of the Liberty being attacked by unmarked aircraft yet most of what I read in terms of the survivors say that they were Israeli aircraft.

Were the attackers marked or not?
I would personally see there more chance of this being an accident if the attackers were clearly marked than if they were not.
Would recomend reading Assault on the Liberty,James Ennes.Jr.
Ennes was Liberty officer on deck and wounded in attack.
Another just released,The Attack on the Liberty,James Scott
Scott's father served on Liberty during the attack.
Liberty survivors website:www.ussliberty.org

Israeli aircraft were indeed unmarked.
The attack was another false flag operation to draw
US into fray.US sixth fleet fighters were scrambled to bomb Egyptian targets and recalled.They were also scrambled and recalled several times after they were sent to defend Liberty against attack.
Still unjustified to this day.There is purported to have been a US sub., Amberjack in area that recorded images of attack.Former crew members claim to have witnessed this.
Amberjack Comanding officer mum.
Liberty was within proximity of Northern coastal Sinai town of El Arish where IDF Brig.General Aryeh Biro has admitted that execution of Egyptian POW's took place. One motive to cover up war crimes.
Mass graves have been unearthed in area.Lastly,although war was over by 8 june,Israel's conquest of much covetted headwaters of Golan heights had not been achieved.In 1967 Israel had attained 2 WMD,and war was in reality about expansion,water resources,and expulsion of undesirable populations.
Or do you buy into that it was a war solely
of "self defence"?
Finally,with all due respect attack on Liberty is part of the mire that is mideast politics.Push for a war with Iran is in the wings.
Joint Chief of staff chairman Mike Mullen on recent trip to Israel warned the leadership there not to pull another "Liberty Attack",knowing full well that Israel is chomping at the bit for a US attack on Iran and is capable of orchesrating events to achieve this.
www.americanfreepress.net/html/u_s__warns_israel_145.html