Originally Posted by senojekips

If this is an example of your knowledge, I would not embarrass myself further. You obviously know nothing of the affair, you do not even know the name of the locality, Tolkien was an author who wrote children's stories, the place where the attack happened was called The Gulf of Tonkin.

it is known that some politicians lied about aspects of the attack, but I know of no US crewman that denies that it happened.

They are friends of convenience who use the Jewish American vote to gain favoured status and support, but as for them being "friends" with the US just look at the way they have ignored your suggestions when it comes to a peace plan in the Middle East. They say they are trying to stop settlers (thieves) from occupying Palestinian land yet the Israeli approach is half hearted and long in coming. That is how much regard Israel has for the US, they are only your "friends" when it suits them.


There is no similarity, Japan had been at war (First Sino-Japanese war) with China since 1931 when they occupied Manchuria, and mounted a full scale attack in 1937, they were officially at war there is absolutely no comparison. If Osama apologised for 9/11, would you just ,... move on?

You obviously have more respect for Israel than you do for the US Naval personnel who were actually involved,... because they know it was not an accident, and so does your intelligence community who heard the messages between the Israeli attackers and their head quarters, acknowledging that the pilots knew it was a US Naval vessel. Like I said, you obviously have not read any of the US accounts of the attack.

Why do you have the act like that? You obviously knew what i was referring to and yet you chose to insult me over a foreign word- why? The spell checker i used said it was the wrong spelling and so i changed it.

I only know one of the people engaged by name, hes James Stockdale. He claimed the Madox was shooting at phantom targets and never saw any enemies.


I disagree that they are "Friends of political convenience" They have helped us greatly and share many of our values such as democratic rule, and a similar religion. We share a close bond with each other.

I dont understand why you hold such hatred for them, they are isolated and surrounded by enemies, why would they want to make more? Regarding the 'peace plan' i wouldn't accept it if i was Israel, 'Palestine' cant be trusted as they have proved in the past. They have no strong center and will throw rockets and bombs at Israel at the same time they accept any sort of settlement.


Actually i was referring to the British diplomat and our river patrol vessel that was hit..not to China.

If Osama was truly sorry then yes i would forgive him. The problem is..he is not he continues to plan our deaths and the death of everyone else. The 9/11 attacks where also deliberately targeted at us, the Liberty was not.

I have great respect and love for Israel, and i understand it was not a malicious attack aimed at us- it was a accident they would take back if possible. Just as we would take back our own friendly fire accidents that has killed other NATO men, or civilians if we could. I am not going to hate and despise Israel for somthing that was a accident, and i dont think you should either. The loss of American lives where tragic, but it was a accident- would you have us declare war on any friendly fire incedent?

Originally Posted by Panzercracker

My goverment should get lessons of PR from Israeli Jews, they intentionally nuke an allied ship, kill people and then slap said allied state in the face by paying what amounts to scraps and still you get a guy like Britney coming here with a huge boner for Israel, then again for what he knows its Tolkien bay and the ship was named USS Frodo

Still its incredible how stupid Americans became, if it was any normal country it would milk Israel for money, apologies and explanations.

Nuked?

..I dont have a *****..either, and no it shows how understanding we are- we are not going to rub it in our friend's face like other countries. We forgive them, just as other countries have forgiven us for friendly fire accidents. Only the dishonorable try to extort money from others based on a accident.

Originally Posted by Britney

Why do you have the act like that? You obviously knew what i was referring to and yet you chose to insult me over a foreign word- why? The spell checker i used said it was the wrong spelling and so i changed it.

I used it as am example to show how poorly you understood the subject which is quite obvious. Even after your spell checker rejected it, you obviously never bothered to "google" for the correct information which would have given you the correct spelling. I would suggest that if you are going to try and debate any issue, that you get some credible sources and not rely on "what you think" as it counts for nothing.

I only know one of the people engaged by name, he's James Stockdale. He claimed the Maddox was shooting at phantom targets and never saw any enemies.

Commander Stockdale disputed an alleged attack by two "radar contacts" on the 4th August, two days after the Tonkin Gulf Incident.

Any way, this has no comparison with the attack on USS Liberty. You are talking about Maddox firing on two radar contacts, the Liberty was overflown and seen by the Israeli Airforce no less than 8 times on the morning prior to the attack those aircraft were close enough to be photographed by crew members, so there is no way that the Israelis did not know which ship it was.

I disagree that they are "Friends of political convenience" They have helped us greatly and share many of our values such as democratic rule, and a similar religion. We share a close bond with each other.

Your personal likes and dislikes have nothing whatsoever to do with the facts, we are discussing what is known of the attack, not whether you like the Israelis or not. All that shows is that your view is biased.

I dont understand why you hold such hatred for them, they are isolated and surrounded by enemies, why would they want to make more? Regarding the 'peace plan' i wouldn't accept it if i was Israel, 'Palestine' cant be trusted as they have proved in the past. They have no strong center and will throw rockets and bombs at Israel at the same time they accept any sort of settlement.

You are right,... you don't know why I allegedly "hate them so much",... because I do not hate them. I hate what they do. If you had been on this site a little longer you would probably have known that I can trace my own Jewish roots back to the 1500s in Amsterdam.

If Osama was truly sorry then yes i would forgive him. The problem is..he is not he continues to plan our deaths and the death of everyone else. The 9/11 attacks where also deliberately targeted at us, the Liberty was not.

but it has been shown numerous times including the admission of one of the Israeli pilots, that the attack was deliberate. I think that you should take the time to read this thread before you go making false statements that have already been disproved. Your line of thought implies that the US crew were all liars?

I have great respect and love for Israel, and i understand it was not a malicious attack aimed at us- it was a accident they would take back if possible. Just as we would take back our own friendly fire accidents that has killed other NATO men, or civilians if we could. I am not going to hate and despise Israel for somthing that was a accident, and i dont think you should either. The loss of American lives where tragic, but it was a accident- would you have us declare war on any friendly fire incedent?

Once again you admit that your views are biased and therefore not based on what facts are known. It was clearly not a friendly fire incident, the only thing that is not clear is why they did it. If what you say were true, we would not be having this discussion.

My guess is that they deliberately picked an intelligence gathering vessel knowing that it was only very lightly armed and would not have a high degree of water tight integrity like a true warship, hoping to overwhelm it in an air and sea attack sinking it without trace then they were going to blame the Egyptians and try to get the US to attack Egypt. But,.. like your theories that carries no weight,.... we are interested only in the known facts.

Originally Posted by senojekips

I used it as am example to show how poorly you understood the subject which is quite obvious. Even after your spell checker rejected it, you obviously never bothered to "google" for the correct information which would have given you the correct spelling. I would suggest that if you are going to try and debate any issue, that you get some credible sources and not rely on "what you think" as it counts for nothing.

Commander Stockdale disputed an alleged attack by two "radar contacts" on the 4th August, two days after the Tonkin Gulf Incident.

Any way, this has no comparison with the attack on USS Liberty. You are talking about Maddox firing on two radar contacts, the Liberty was overflown and seen by the Israeli Airforce no less than 8 times on the morning prior to the attack those aircraft were close enough to be photographed by crew members, so there is no way that the Israelis did not know which ship it was.


Your personal likes and dislikes have nothing whatsoever to do with the facts, we are discussing what is known of the attack, not whether you like the Israelis or not. All that shows is that your view is biased.

You are right,... you don't know why I allegedly "hate them so much",... because I do not hate them. I hate what they do. If you had been on this site a little longer you would probably have known that I can trace my own Jewish roots back to the 1500s in Amsterdam.

but it has been shown numerous times including the admission of one of the Israeli pilots, that the attack was deliberate. I think that you should take the time to read this thread before you go making false statements that have already been disproved. Your line of thought implies that the US crew were all liars?

Once again you admit that your views are biased and therefore not based on what facts are known. It was clearly not a friendly fire incident, the only thing that is not clear is why they did it. If what you say were true, we would not be having this discussion.

My guess is that they deliberately picked an intelligence gathering vessel knowing that it was only very lightly armed and would not have a high degree of water tight integrity like a true warship, hoping to overwhelm it in an air and sea attack sinking it without trace then they were going to blame the Egyptians and try to get the US to attack Egypt. But,.. like your theories that carries no weight,.... we are interested only in the known facts.

Acually i know it quite well,but i really dont think you have the authority to tell me what i do and do not know- considering you know nothing about me. Forming your retire opinion of how intellectually aware a individual is based on a small paragraph

First of all if you need to google somthing while your talking,you already know less than you should know about it.

Second, i will not stand for your constant insults. Just because someone has a opposing view does not give you the right to belittle them, or act elitist. I have done and said nothing to warrant such behavior and i would greatly appreciate it if you stop it. We can have a civilised conversation with opposing views without resorting to petty acts of aggression toward each other. I find the hostility your showing me uncalled for, and unpleasant.



Now, Commander Stockdale claimed the Madox had been firing on phantom targets. Whether or not you agree with him ( I personally do not) it is still someone who was at the scene that disputed it, didnt you ask for that?

I made the comparison between the Maddox and the Liberty for the example of how people on the same ship could see different things then others. One person says they saw somthing, another says it didnt happen- who do you believe? We where not there and as such we only have accounts pf what happened. Even if the events happened exactly how you belivethey happened- what of the IDF pilot? was he fatigued, was he on edge, was he focused? These factors have been the cause of fatality among many pilots from many countries, we can not jump to the conclusion he was in the state of mind to different between vessels- especially when the US had claimed we had no vessels in the vicinity. I believe thats a very large factor your overlooking.

Oh come now, from what you have said its obvious you hold great disfavor toward Israel, i have seen you give them the benefit of the doubt on a single possibility so far. ( btw, how can a nationalist be bias against her own country? o.O)

I just read somthing interesting, you say gut feelings should not get in the way of facts, but you just guessed at somthing..isn't that you know..

A lot of the rest i kind of just skimmed over, im not going to respond to segments where im constantly insulted or you call me bias or other belittling names. I think we should both be above that sort of disposition.

Originally Posted by Britney

Acually i know it quite well,but i really dont think you have the authority to tell me what i do and do not know- considering you know nothing about me. Forming your retire opinion of how intellectually aware a individual is based on a small paragraph.

If you know this subject, why do you make so many basic mistakes.
You don't even know the basic facts about this or other incidents that you quote, e.g. the name of the event,(Tonkin NOT Tolkien) the correct name of one of the vessels involved (It is Maddox, NOT Madox). Being "retired" has nothing to do with my opinion, it is exactly the same as when I served in our Navy.

You freely admit that your theories are influenced merely by the fact that you "like" the Israelis, yet you still have the gall to expect others to take you seriously.

First of all if you need to google somthing while your talking,you already know less than you should know about it.

Well, it is obvious that you knew very little about the subject, it might be an idea that you do start checking your details before making broad brush statements in this debate, because even though you may not, others including myself certainly will. This debate involves the honour of men who served their country and even though you may treat it lightly and have no respect for them, I feel that in view of the evidence, they have been treated very poorly, for no more than political gain. They deserve better.

Second, i will not stand for your constant insults.

Well, so long as you keep posting rubbish, you are going to need a chair. Perhaps you don't realise that my posts seem insulting to you because they are true and it seems that you don't like being told the the truth. So, if you don't want to hear my answers, don't post drivel based on your likes rather than the known facts.

Now, Commander Stockdale claimed the Madox had been firing on phantom targets. Whether or not you agree with him ( I personally do not) it is still someone who was at the scene that disputed it, didnt you ask for that?

Cdr. Stockdale did not dispute that the Tonkin Gulf incident took place, he merely stated that he thought that an incident two days later was incorrectly reported. He was most probably correct, but it has no bearing or similarity to the attack on the USS Liberty as the incident reported by Stockdale took place at night and the Liberty attack was in broad daylight

Originally Posted by Stockdale's memoirs

"There was absolutely no gunfire except our own, no PT boat wakes, not a candle light let alone a burning ship. None could have been there and not have been seen on such a black night."

I made the comparison between the Maddox and the Liberty for the example of how people on the same ship could see different things then others. One person says they saw somthing, another says it didnt happen- who do you believe?

I would believe the people who have photographic evidence to support the fact that the Israeli jets closely examined the Liberty on no less than 8 occasions on the morning prior to the attack, that's who I would believe.

These factors have been the cause of fatality among many pilots from many countries, we can not jump to the conclusion he was in the state of mind to different between vessels- especially when the US had claimed we had no vessels in the vicinity. I believe thats a very large factor your overlooking.

The USS Liberty was in International waters, and as such, had no obligation to inform anyone of her whereabouts, whereas all belligerent nations are bound under international Maritime law to properly identify their targets. To not do this is a war crime. Regardless of this fact, the Israelis did examine the vessel closely on a number of occasions, and unless they were blind, would have known exactly what vessel she was. Very hard or even impossible to mistake, especially seeing it had it's pennant number clearly painted on the bow in letters 10 feet high clearly discernible even in poor quality photos taken.

Oh come now, from what you have said its obvious you hold great disfavor toward Israel, i have seen you give them the benefit of the doubt on a single possibility so far. ( btw, how can a nationalist be bias against her own country? o.O)

Obviously you are also a poor judge of character, as you have no idea of what I think or who I like. I tell the truth as i see it, I don't pull my punches. Just the same as I willingly criticise the actions of Australia and our allies when they do the wrong thing. Unlike some, I do not play favourites with the truth.

I just read somthing interesting, you say gut feelings should not get in the way of facts, but you just guessed at somthing..isn't that you know..[/quote]Yes, I made a guess,... and I stated clearly and unequivocally that it was purely my own opinion, I did not state that it was a fact to be taken into consideration in the debate. there is a vast difference to stating facts, and merey stating what you feel may be correct.

A lot of the rest i kind of just skimmed over, im not going to respond to segments where im constantly insulted or you call me bias or other belittling names. I think we should both be above that sort of disposition.

You obviously skimmed over the whole subject so lightly you missed all the facts.

what the hell is the diffrence between Maddox and Madox?!

Originally Posted by EladBell

what the hell is the diffrence between Maddox and Madox?!

Do you honestly expect me to believe that you can't tell? Did you pick up the difference between Tonkin and Tolkien?
It is the name of the vessel involved and as such deserves its proper spelling. Anyone who had ever read the account of the incident would know how the vessel's name is spelt. Whereas if it were you, and English were not your first language it would perhaps be excusable.

Our friend Britney professes not only to be an American, but also claims to know the subject.

i do know that but u understand what she ment....why do u always have to think u know more than anyone else?
whydo u always have to post such offending posts and use offending language,u are an adult start acting like one!
show ur knolandge like a man and not like a little girl who tries to make the other side say"alright u win just leave me alone"

Originally Posted by EladBell

i do know that but u understand what she ment....why do u always have to think u know more than anyone else?
whydo u always have to post such offending posts and use offending language,u are an adult start acting like one!
show ur knolandge like a man and not like a little girl who tries to make the other side say"alright u win just leave me alone"

Because sometimes others make stupid childish, posts on a serious subject and need to be bought back to reality.

I'm not going to apologise for telling it like it is. Putting the known facts bluntly, is all some people understand. But if you can present a logical argument I will respect you, whether, in my view, you are right or wrong.

As for knowing more than others. No doubt in some subjects I do know more than some others, but in the other subjects where I do not have any knowledge, I leave them up to the people who obviously know more than I do, and do not interfere in them by making stupid statements that I cannot back up.

Childish innocence, is not a valid excuse for making stupid and unfounded statements.

My signature states my case.

look at your posts,they are full of bashing and hatred even preaching i might say.
again u are an adult and this is the only reason u have my respect

Originally Posted by EladBell

look at your posts,they are full of bashing and hatred even preaching i might say.
again u are an adult and this is the only reason u have my respect

Ahhh,... so,.. we have an amateur psychologist among us eh,... well, before you get too busy with your accusations and views on what I have said.

Please quote just one of my posts that actually uses the word "hate" or "hatred" in relation to my thoughts on others, or what they believe in.

I think that you will find that your imagination is working overtime and reading things into my posts, that are just not there. You are frustrated and annoyed and have allowed this to make you take your eye off the ball. After all, as I pointed out earlier, no one really gives a damn what you may think,... all that really counts is being able to find the facts.