Update on Copenhagen shootings in Denmark: Suspect killed - Page 2




 
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Boots
 
February 17th, 2015  
brinktk
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kesse81
The vast majority of foreigners come from EU countries or countries that are culturally similar to ours; however there´s an immigration which has created Muslim parallel societies that are characterized by a different culture and a different view of society than the Danish. Danes and foreigners generally have a good relationship and in daily life, there are no major problems.

The Danes are often characterized as xenophobic and opponents of all that is foreign. But that’s not right. We live in a very open society based on mutual trust and are used to discuss everything on a very open basis. Danes appreciate freedom such as religious, sexual, political and not least the freedom of speech.

At the same time there has been a radicalization of Islam, both in the Muslim world and in Europe. In the Muslim parallel societies there is a widespread belief that society should be ruled by religion.

It abuts with the secular society we have in Denmark - a society where it is free people and not religion that determines. The clash has many forms. One of them is about freedom of expression. Most Muslims do not believe that freedom of expression must be used for criticism and satire against the Prophet Mohammed and Islam.

The majority of Danes are not hostile toward strangers, but we are skeptical. Many believe that we have failed to integrate the people who are not from the Western world. Generally, the Danes have a tendency to assess the impact of immigration as negative. We are afraid that our unique culture and our freedoms rights may be limited.

Looking at the issues Danes believe exists, then it´s primarily social issues such as unemployment and crime rate among them more than the foreigner's greater religiosity. So far there are no major controversies between the ordinary Danish citizens and people of foreign origin. However, there is an increasing tendency that the Muslim community wants more religious considerations taken at the expense of the Danish values which mean that more and more people will develop an increasingly negative attitude to Muslims especially.

This is a problem we have to discuss in an open forum without pulling out the Racism card every time we talk about Islam and Danish culture. It requires that the leftist puts their prejudices away and actually takes the anxious citizens opinion seriously.

We are a people that can accommodate a lot, but we have a boundary line and it gets closer and closer teach day. As said, it´s small problems we have with people of foreign origin – so far!

Interesting, and I'm sad to say that it verifies my assumption. I am starting to see and even think for myself that "enough is enough" with this. I don't mind being tolerant, but I also value my rights and freedoms above all others. Islam isn't above ridicule or speculation which I think is the fundamental problem between the civilizations. We are literally and figuratively speaking different languages. Until that gap can be bridged, and a solid understanding can made between the "Sharia" Muslims and Western society, this problem will only get worse...
February 17th, 2015  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by brinktk
Interesting, and I'm sad to say that it verifies my assumption. I am starting to see and even think for myself that "enough is enough" with this. I don't mind being tolerant, but I also value my rights and freedoms above all others. Islam isn't above ridicule or speculation which I think is the fundamental problem between the civilizations. We are literally and figuratively speaking different languages. Until that gap can be bridged, and a solid understanding can made between the "Sharia" Muslims and Western society, this problem will only get worse...
I think you have missed the point and gone for the obvious in that answer.

1) Your rights and freedoms are granted and not an absolute as much as people want to spout on about freedoms the fact is that you can not do anything you want for example "Freedom of speech" only extends to the point that you can not slander or liable others, true that you can't be stopped from saying what you want but you can be punished for saying it and you still can't steal, murder or rape.

2) Islam is not above ridicule, absolutely true nothing should be above being criticised but there is a point where ridicule goes from an acceptable level to an offensive level, basically there is a difference between telling someone "I think your religion is archaic and seriously needs to be dragged out of the 7th century" and "I think your religion crap your god is gay and I am wiping my butt with your holy book", essentially the former will get you a discussion and the latter a smack in the jaw.

3) You are correct that there is a difference between civilisations but I think the difference is that the west has become so desensitised to peoples beliefs and values that we simply keep increasing the shock value of what we do and say until we get a response.

Believe it or not "Tolerating" others views is not only allowing them to have those views but also about not trying to provoke those views into action and that is the bit I believe the west has forgotten.

Each religion has its extremists and they will always be a danger to our society but the vast majority of all religions in our countries are quite happy to live under national laws and just want to get on with their routine daily lives.
February 17th, 2015  
JOC
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
I think you have missed the point and gone for the obvious in that answer.

1) Your rights and freedoms are granted and not an absolute as much as people want to spout on about freedoms the fact is that you can not do anything you want for example "Freedom of speech" only extends to the point that you can not slander or liable others, true that you can't be stopped from saying what you want but you can be punished for saying it and you still can't steal, murder or rape.

2) Islam is not above ridicule, absolutely true nothing should be above being criticised but there is a point where ridicule goes from an acceptable level to an offensive level, basically there is a difference between telling someone "I think your religion is archaic and seriously needs to be dragged out of the 7th century" and "I think your religion crap your god is gay and I am wiping my butt with your holy book", essentially the former will get you a discussion and the latter a smack in the jaw.

3) You are correct that there is a difference between civilisations but I think the difference is that the west has become so desensitised to peoples beliefs and values that we simply keep increasing the shock value of what we do and say until we get a response.

Believe it or not "Tolerating" others views is not only allowing them to have those views but also about not trying to provoke those views into action and that is the bit I believe the west has forgotten.

Each religion has its extremists and they will always be a danger to our society but the vast majority of all religions in our countries are quite happy to live under national laws and just want to get on with their routine daily lives.
I want to add 1 little fact here. The people killed by fundamental Christians in the last 25 years could probably be counted with your fingers. And no the Aryan Brotherhood, KKK, etc. don't count as Christians. I'm not saying that the majority of the Muslims are regular people who just want to take care of their families and make a living. However when they get radical they really became do become die hard murderous Jihadist.
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Boots
February 17th, 2015  
brinktk
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
I think you have missed the point and gone for the obvious in that answer.

1) Your rights and freedoms are granted and not an absolute as much as people want to spout on about freedoms the fact is that you can not do anything you want for example "Freedom of speech" only extends to the point that you can not slander or liable others, true that you can't be stopped from saying what you want but you can be punished for saying it and you still can't steal, murder or rape.

2) Islam is not above ridicule, absolutely true nothing should be above being criticised but there is a point where ridicule goes from an acceptable level to an offensive level, basically there is a difference between telling someone "I think your religion is archaic and seriously needs to be dragged out of the 7th century" and "I think your religion crap your god is gay and I am wiping my butt with your holy book", essentially the former will get you a discussion and the latter a smack in the jaw.

3) You are correct that there is a difference between civilisations but I think the difference is that the west has become so desensitised to peoples beliefs and values that we simply keep increasing the shock value of what we do and say until we get a response.

Believe it or not "Tolerating" others views is not only allowing them to have those views but also about not trying to provoke those views into action and that is the bit I believe the west has forgotten.

Each religion has its extremists and they will always be a danger to our society but the vast majority of all religions in our countries are quite happy to live under national laws and just want to get on with their routine daily lives.

I didn't have time to delve deeply into an answer, but I suppose I can give it a shot since I'm on lunch now...

1. I never said people could "do anything". I meant to frame it in reference to MY country and our constitution. Yes, rule of law is nice to have, as long as it is based off of reason and logic and not theology.

2. Certainly there is a difference in the two and I believe that both should be protected. The same as those Westboro Baptist Church loons, it has to be protected as much as I disagree with them. Once you start picking and choosing what it tolerable and what isn't based off of people sensibilities then where do you draw the line?

3. Hard to be tolerant if a group coming to ones country isn't willing to assimilate. The Sharia Muslims in many European countries (as well as the US where there is a large Muslim population in the community) openly espouse the downfall of the west in many cases and profess a need for ALL people to live under their Islamic law...I think that their profession of that belief is just as antagonistic to Western values as it is to Islamic values to desecrate a Qu'ran or draw a picture of the prophet Mohammed. In both cases, it is the crazies that are doing it. But in the West, one can clearly see that Westerners that are more tolerant make sure to openly and even take action against the ignorant in our ranks...We don't see the moderate Muslims policing up their radicals (or counter protesting) in the same regard, and in the same numbers...

I believe that people are responsible for their actions. Whether or not they are "provoked" doesn't mean anything to me. If anyone is insecure enough in their beliefs that they have to use violence to reconcile their perceived slight...well, that says a lot more about that belief system than the belief itself.

Furthermore, if the crazies from the Islamist side of the aisle are really interested in living a Sharia lifestyle, then why don't they move to a country that is going to facilitate that lifestyle for them instead of dictating special treatment in the country they end up in? That makes no sense to me.
February 17th, 2015  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOC
I want to add 1 little fact here. The people killed by fundamental Christians in the last 25 years could probably be counted with your fingers. And no the Aryan Brotherhood, KKK, etc. don't count as Christians. I'm not saying that the majority of the Muslims are regular people who just want to take care of their families and make a living. However when they get radical they really became do become die hard murderous Jihadist.

You must have a lot of fingers, ever heard of the Sabra and Shatila massacres carried out by Maronite Christian militia's in Lebanon, Paramilitaries in Ireland killed close on 1800 people, The Nagaland for Christ Organisation killed 900 and made refugees of about 100,000 in Manipur and there are a lot more but I am sure you get the point, Anders Brevik for example used the excuse that "Muslim immigration was undermining Norways Christian nature" and every single abortion doctor and clinic killed or blown up is done by someone claiming to be representing god.

Now before you say "But those people were lunatics and don't represent Christianity" remember that no religious book supports indiscriminate murder so the same argument applies to Hindu, Christian, Jew and Muslim.
February 17th, 2015  
JOC
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
You must have a lot of fingers, ever heard of the Sabra and Shatila massacres carried out by Maronite Christian militia's in Lebanon, Paramilitaries in Ireland killed close on 1800 people, The Nagaland for Christ Organisation killed 900 and made refugees of about 100,000 in Manipur and there are a lot more but I am sure you get the point, Anders Brevik for example used the excuse that "Muslim immigration was undermining Norways Christian nature" and every single abortion doctor and clinic killed or blown up is done by someone claiming to be representing god.

Now before you say "But those people were lunatics and don't represent Christianity" remember that no religious book supports indiscriminate murder so the same argument applies to Hindu, Christian, Jew and Muslim.
That's basically what I would have said. There are misguided murderers in so-called Christianity, if we view it from the perspective of true followers vs. so called followers. Point well taken, I wish they didn't give us a black eye.
Fundamental Christianity is only practiced by perhaps 10% of todays self professed practicing Christians. The rest believe in 1/2 baked truths mixed with man made politics and philosophies. They're not true Christians but are members of: cults, sects, or religions of convenience. However no man is perfect and above reproach.
I will say most enter the US and keep their customs (that what makes us so culturally diverse) but also eventually adapt to the so-called American culture as well. The goal is to assimilate while maintaining your own individual distinctive attributes. Not for someone to come into the US and expect us to change to suit their desires. To respect the US flag and be glad to be here.
February 20th, 2015  
lljadw
 
Sorry of being harsh : but,this is an ostrich attitude,which is not unusual to hear today in the US,and specially in the White House :the truth is (as did say the archbishop of Mossul):democracy and liberalism have no place in the ME and there is no place for the Islam in Europe .
February 23rd, 2015  
Kesse81
 

Topic: Tried to overpower the gunman.


The 55-year-old photographer, producer and director Finn Norgaard was killed when he tried to overpower the gunman, according to a new witness, Clayton Coleman.

Coleman was looking for his wife's stolen bike when he heard a man shout.
From the other side of the street, he sees the suspected assassin, Omar Abdel Hamid El-Hussein kill Finn Norgaard at close range.

I can see him (Omar Abdel Hamid El-Hussein.) come out of the door and shout something - and he started opening fire with an automatic weapon (C7A1) I thought they had
a show running – but I could see the bullets go through the windows and thought is this for real? Coleman says.

According to Coleman Finn Norgaard came around the corner and went directly against the alleged offender, Omar Abdel Hamid El-Hussein – after numerous shots was fired.

He (Finn Norgaard) tries to grab his arms.
But the offender gets free turns around and shoots says Clayton Coleman.

Finn Norgaard was according to Coleman hit by a single shot to the shoulder. He died while witnesses - including Clayton Coleman - tried to save him.
February 24th, 2015  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by brinktk

I believe that people are responsible for their actions. Whether or not they are "provoked" doesn't mean anything to me. If anyone is insecure enough in their beliefs that they have to use violence to reconcile their perceived slight...well, that says a lot more about that belief system than the belief itself.

Furthermore, if the crazies from the Islamist side of the aisle are really interested in living a Sharia lifestyle, then why don't they move to a country that is going to facilitate that lifestyle for them instead of dictating special treatment in the country they end up in? That makes no sense to me.
I was going to compose a rather long response until I realised that it would only be an argument over semantics and neither of us need that.

However I am not sure I agree that provocation is not an excuse, certainly the more fundamentalist folks tend to take anything as a provocation but I am prepared to bet that everyone of us has a point where we stop talking and start swinging and in many cases I think a case can be made to justify that action, so while the bible may tell us to turn the other cheek it must also be remembered that we only have two cheeks to turn (excluding posteriors).

I would also argue that if you know that there will be repercussions to your actions and still carry out those actions then you are accepting the consequences.

Quote:
Furthermore, if the crazies from the Islamist side of the aisle are really interested in living a Sharia lifestyle, then why don't they move to a country that is going to facilitate that lifestyle for them instead of dictating special treatment in the country they end up in? That makes no sense to me.
I entirely agree with this but perhaps they see themselves as missionaries of a sort after all we keep attempting to flood Muslim countries with Christians attempting to convert everyone.
February 24th, 2015  
tetvet
 
A tempest in a teapot , what happen in Denmark is sad of course but hardly earth shattering , maybe a wake up call or a dose of reality , I think the police in Copenhagen handled it well by killing the perk this was a positive move .
 


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