An uncommon sight in Europe's skies




 
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November 15th, 2015  
pampa14
 

Topic: An uncommon sight in Europe's skies


I share with you an interesting collection of pictures showing one of the projects launched at the end of World War II by Germany as part of its war effort to try to avoid the increasingly Allied bombing. The big question remains whether this rocket plane had been built in greater quantities and earlier would have changed the final outcome? What do you think? Visit the link below, see photos and give your opinion about it.


http://aviacaoemfloripa.blogspot.com...da-europa.html


Best Regards.
November 15th, 2015  
George
 
Personally I think the only "game changer" would have been if the Me-262 had gone into production early on instead of being delayed by insistence on a jet bomber.
November 16th, 2015  
MontyB
 
 
The Me-262 was never going to save Germany even had it come out in 1942, Germanys problems ran far deeper than its inability to get a jet into combat.

In my opinion the massive numbers of design groups and prototypes rolling out of factories were the biggest problem the Luftwaffe had as they diverted attention and resources from the tasks that needed solving mainly updating existing fighters to stay competitive and manufacturing the numbers needed to combat the allies.
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November 16th, 2015  
JOC
 
 
Of the 400+ and some odd ME-262 that did make it into combat they had a kill ratio of > 4 to 1 over the allies, who were completely outclassed. Had it come out in a year or 2 earlier when sufficient fuel was available for much larger quantities of ME-262's and the allied fighter were not yet so advanced (i.e. P-51 not developed until 44) it would have no dought ruled the skies. Yes the engines needed regular replacement, however Germany was aware of this and made the replacements as needed for the planes that made it into combat. The real issue was when it became available there just wasn't enough fuel for the aircrafts.
November 17th, 2015  
MontyB
 
 
Yet had the Me-262 rolled off the production line in 1942 the Gloster Meteor would have entered service as a counter to it within 6 months, the only change would have been to see Jet vs Jet combat in 1943, the Allies would have out produced the Germans and swamped them by 1944 as they did in the piston engine world.

The German problem is that it could neither out produce the Allies nor sufficiently out class the allies to compensate for the lack of production therefore attrition was always going to favour the Allies.
November 17th, 2015  
JOC
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Yet had the Me-262 rolled off the production line in 1942 the Gloster Meteor would have entered service as a counter to it within 6 months, the only change would have been to see Jet vs Jet combat in 1943, the Allies would have out produced the Germans and swamped them by 1944 as they did in the piston engine world.

The German problem is that it could neither out produce the Allies nor sufficiently out class the allies to compensate for the lack of production therefore attrition was always going to favour the Allies.
Yet the British Gloster Meteor which was available in production at a similar time frame to that of the ME-262 was not produced in quantity or used in a fighter to fighter combat role. Certainly a fine aircraft for it's time, however it's effectiveness against the ME-262 can only be speculated.

Again as with Germany, Britain was slow to bring the jet to it's potential.

As for outclassing, Germany outclassed the allies in many areas of weaponry from tanks, tank destroyers, machine guns, Anti aircraft guns, missiles, rockets, Sturmgewehr (assault gun) to name a few.

Germanys problem was numerical superiority in men and equipment when taking on the combined forces of the USA, USSR and British Common Wealth.
November 17th, 2015  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOC
Yet the British Gloster Meteor which was available in production at a similar time frame to that of the ME-262 was not produced in quantity or used in a fighter to fighter combat role. Certainly a fine aircraft for it's time, however it's effectiveness against the ME-262 can only be speculated.

Again as with Germany, Britain was slow to bring the jet to it's potential.

As for outclassing, Germany outclassed the allies in many areas of weaponry from tanks, tank destroyers, machine guns, Anti aircraft guns, missiles, rockets, Sturmgewehr (assault gun) to name a few.

Germanys problem was numerical superiority in men and equipment when taking on the combined forces of the USA, USSR and British Common Wealth.
Had the Me-262 reached production in 1942 the Allies would have had a jet to match it within 6 months if not sooner and they would have moved mountains to regain air superiority, the history of fighter development exhibited this tit for tat evolution from the beginning of air combat.

Even if the Me-262 gave Germany a 5 to 1 kill ratio it still would not have been enough as allied production of fighters was well beyond Germany's ability to build and replace its own fighter fleet.

For Example:
1943 Allies produced approximately 147,000 Aircraft to Germany's 24,000.
1944 Allies 163,000 Germany 40,000
1945 Allies 79,000 Germany 7500.

In terms of fighters Allies 164,000 vs 57,000.

Source:** Mark Harrison, The economics of World War II: six great powers in international comparison**

It was Stalin that said quantity has a quality of its own and Germany learned exactly how accurate that comment was, Germany produced probably the most technicologically advanced weapons on the planet for most of the war but the allies produced equipment in of similar quality in massive quantities and won the war.

It is that simple.

As with many wars between similarly armed nations it is logistics that win wars and Germany was incapable of manufacturing, maintaining and shifting enough equipment to even force a stalemate. This issue was further complicated by infighting between branches of the military, the vanity/egos of the nations leaders and the funding and supply of countless groups attempting to produce the next "Wunderwaffe".
November 17th, 2015  
BritinAfrica
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Had the Me-262 reached production in 1942 the Allies would have had a jet to match it within 6 months if not sooner and they would have moved mountains to regain air superiority, the history of fighter development exhibited this tit for tat evolution from the beginning of air combat.

Even if the Me-262 gave Germany a 5 to 1 kill ratio it still would not have been enough as allied production of fighters was well beyond Germany's ability to build and replace its own fighter fleet.

For Example:
1943 Allies produced approximately 147,000 Aircraft to Germany's 24,000.
1944 Allies 163,000 Germany 40,000
1945 Allies 79,000 Germany 7500.

In terms of fighters Allies 164,000 vs 57,000.

Source:** Mark Harrison, The economics of World War II: six great powers in international comparison**

It was Stalin that said quantity has a quality of its own and Germany learned exactly how accurate that comment was, Germany produced probably the most technicologically advanced weapons on the planet for most of the war but the allies produced equipment in of similar quality in massive quantities and won the war.

It is that simple.

As with many wars between similarly armed nations it is logistics that win wars and Germany was incapable of manufacturing, maintaining and shifting enough equipment to even force a stalemate. This issue was further complicated by infighting between branches of the military, the vanity/egos of the nations leaders and the funding and supply of countless groups attempting to produce the next "Wunderwaffe".
If the Air Ministry had listened to and backed Frank Whittle, the RAF would have had a jet ready for the Battle of Britain and possibly shortening the war.

The engines fitted to the 262 had a life of 25 hours before needing a complete overhaul, they also had a nasty habit of catching fire. The Rolls engines fitted to the Meteor only needed a complete overhaul every 100 hours.
November 17th, 2015  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
If the Air Ministry had listened to and backed Frank Whittle, the RAF would have had a jet ready for the Battle of Britain and possibly shortening the war.

The engines fitted to the 262 had a life of 25 hours before needing a complete overhaul, the yalso had a nasty habit of catching fire. The Rolls engines fitted to the Meteor only needed a complete overhaul every 100 hours.
Exactly, the Germans through necessity produced some very advanced gear and got it into the field but often it was manufactured with low quality materials and by untrained (in some cases forced) labour.

But in many cases the Germans were not as advanced as history tends to parrot and the fighter war is a good example of this as it is riddled with the tit for tat advances, one model of the Bf-109 would be better than the current generation of Spitfire yet within weeks of it being in action a new model Spitfire would roll off the production line that once again matched or bettered the Bf-109 and this process repeated itself for much of the war.

Jet development was a lost opportunity for both sides as the first turbojet to fly was the Luftwaffes He-178 which flew in 1939 and was then shelved, few people seem to recall that the Meteor was the first production fighter going into production a couple of months before the Me-262 and it was only neccessity that got the Me-262 the title of first jet to see active service as Meteor was tested thoroughly before reaching combat units.
November 17th, 2015  
JOC
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Had the Me-262 reached production in 1942 the Allies would have had a jet to match it within 6 months if not sooner and they would have moved mountains to regain air superiority, the history of fighter development exhibited this tit for tat evolution from the beginning of air combat.

Even if the Me-262 gave Germany a 5 to 1 kill ratio it still would not have been enough as allied production of fighters was well beyond Germany's ability to build and replace its own fighter fleet.

For Example:
1943 Allies produced approximately 147,000 Aircraft to Germany's 24,000.
1944 Allies 163,000 Germany 40,000
1945 Allies 79,000 Germany 7500.

In terms of fighters Allies 164,000 vs 57,000.

Source:** Mark Harrison, The economics of World War II: six great powers in international comparison**

It was Stalin that said quantity has a quality of its own and Germany learned exactly how accurate that comment was, Germany produced probably the most technicologically advanced weapons on the planet for most of the war but the allies produced equipment in of similar quality in massive quantities and won the war.

It is that simple.

As with many wars between similarly armed nations it is logistics that win wars and Germany was incapable of manufacturing, maintaining and shifting enough equipment to even force a stalemate. This issue was further complicated by infighting between branches of the military, the vanity/egos of the nations leaders and the funding and supply of countless groups attempting to produce the next "Wunderwaffe".
This is exactly what I said without all the fanfare
 


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