An uncommon sight in Europe's skies - Page 2




 
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November 17th, 2015  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOC
This is exactly what I said without all the fanfare
really I thought you said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JOC
Of the 400+ and some odd ME-262 that did make it into combat they had a kill ratio of > 4 to 1 over the allies, who were completely outclassed. Had it come out in a year or 2 earlier when sufficient fuel was available for much larger quantities of ME-262's and the allied fighter were not yet so advanced (i.e. P-51 not developed until 44) it would have no dought ruled the skies. Yes the engines needed regular replacement, however Germany was aware of this and made the replacements as needed for the planes that made it into combat. The real issue was when it became available there just wasn't enough fuel for the aircrafts.
Which is nothing like what I posted and exactly what I am arguing against, the respite from allied air superiority that the Me-262 could have offered even in 1942 could have been measured in weeks and probably counted on one hand.
November 17th, 2015  
JOC
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Even if the Me-262 gave Germany a 5 to 1 kill ratio it still would not have been enough as allied production of fighters was well beyond Germany's ability to build and replace its own fighter fleet.

For Example:
1943 Allies produced approximately 147,000 Aircraft to Germany's 24,000.
1944 Allies 163,000 Germany 40,000
1945 Allies 79,000 Germany 7500.

In terms of fighters Allies 164,000 vs 57,000.

Source:** Mark Harrison, The economics of World War II: six great powers in international comparison**

It was Stalin that said quantity has a quality of its own and Germany learned exactly how accurate that comment was, Germany produced probably the most technicologically advanced weapons on the planet for most of the war but the allies produced equipment in of similar quality in massive quantities and won the war.

It is that simple.

As with many wars between similarly armed nations it is logistics that win wars and Germany was incapable of manufacturing, maintaining and shifting enough equipment to even force a stalemate. This issue was further complicated by infighting between branches of the military, the vanity/egos of the nations leaders and the funding and supply of countless groups attempting to produce the next "Wunderwaffe".
Much to do about nothing. In fewer words you said Germany was defeated by numerical superiority look at my last statement on post #6
November 26th, 2015  
JOC
 
 
After the end of the war, the Me 262 and other advanced German technologies were quickly swept up by the Americans (as part of the USAAF's Operation Lusty), British, and Soviets. Many Me 262s were found in readily repairable condition and were confiscated. Both the Soviets and Americans desired the technology to serve as a basis for their own jet fighters.

During testing, the Me 262 was found to have advantages over the early models of the Gloster Meteor. It was faster, had better cockpit visibility to the sides and rear (mostly due to the canopy frame and the discoloration caused by the plastics used in the Meteor's construction), and was a superior gun platform, as the early Meteors had a tendency to snake at high speed and exhibited "weak" aileron response. The Me 262 did have a shorter combat range than the Meteor.

The USAAF compared the P-80 P-80 and Me 262 concluding, "Despite a difference in gross weight of nearly 2,000 lb (900 kg), the Me 262 was superior to the P-80 in acceleration, speed and approximately the same in climb performance. The Me 262 apparently has a higher critical Mach number, from a drag standpoint, than any current Army Air Force fighter

Just for curiosity's sake
Source Wikipedia
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November 26th, 2015  
MontyB
 
 
Your point is what, no one is arguing that it wasnt a leading edge aircraft in terms of technology, what we are arguing is that it would never have been enough to alter the outcome of the war, by anyones standards the P-80 was a piece of crap the best thing you could say about it was that it did fly, mostly into the ground but at least it did get off the ground far enough to kill its test pilots on impact.
November 26th, 2015  
JOC
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Your point is what.
As stated curiosities sake
November 26th, 2015  
George
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
really I thought you said:



Which is nothing like what I posted and exactly what I am arguing against, the respite from allied air superiority that the Me-262 could have offered even in 1942 could have been measured in weeks and probably counted on one hand.
And yet they failed to get a jet into combat after the 262 went operational.....
November 27th, 2015  
MontyB
 
 
The Meteor was in production before the Me-262 and it was in the process of being deployed when the war ended, the prime reason it was never rushed into service was that it was not necessary as the allies were already combating the Me-262 well enough with conventional fighters.

Basically the British unlike the Germans did not need to risk the lives of their pilots in untried combat aircraft.

The sad thing is that we are now two pages into a thread on the Bachem Ba 349 Natter and not one person has even mentioned it, for some reason we are fixated with the Me-262.
November 27th, 2015  
JOC
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
The Meteor was in production before the Me-262 and it was in the process of being deployed when the war ended, the prime reason it was never rushed into service was that it was not necessary as the allies were already combating the Me-262 well enough with conventional fighters.

Basically the British unlike the Germans did not need to risk the lives of their pilots in untried combat aircraft.

The sad thing is that we are now two pages into a thread on the Bachem Ba 349 Natter and not one person has even mentioned it, for some reason we are fixated with the Me-262.
The Meteor only beat the ME-262 into production by several months and when later tested was proven not to be as proficient a fighter as was the ME-262. My sources claim the ME-262’s engines needed changing every 50 hours, Brit says 25 hours. Either way the engine did have a longevity issue. The Meteor engines lasted ~ 100 hours. So even if it were rushed into combat it may have fallen short when combating the ME-262?

The reason the allies could rest on their laurels was that only a relatively small number of ME-262 made it into aerial combat. This was due to a lack of fuel and secondly due to a lack of sufficiently long runways that weren’t bombed. This small number of Me-262 that did make it into combat achieved a kill ratio of (4 or 5) to 1 over allied planes. However with countless thousands of P-51’s, Mosquito and other conventional fighter aircraft pitted against the small number of ME-262’s they could never hope to tip the balance at this late stage in the war.

The Bachem Ba 349 Natter is a surface to air rocket powered interceptor more of a missile. Not really relevant to the discussion of WW2 jet aircraft. However it may make for another interesting WW2 tread.
November 27th, 2015  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOC

The Bachem Ba 349 Natter is a surface to air rocket powered interceptor more of a missile. Not really relevant to the discussion of WW2 jet aircraft. However it may make for another interesting WW2 tread.
Dude did you take a look at the starting post for this thread it takes you to a page about the Natter, we all just got side tracked into another Me-262 thread.

So this was mean't to be the "interesting" thread on the Natter.
 


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