Originally Posted by Ray89

i think if the germans could keep their alliance with russian troops.. the war would of ended verry differant

Never happen. Stalin was eyeing eastern europe that is part of the reason he jumped into bed with Hitler in the first place. In return for the non-aggro pact with germany they partition poland and the baltic states. And buys time to coming industrializing his nation and place it on a war footing which like every other nation in world was behind germany.


On a side note it awesome to see this discussion still going on. I have been gone for awhile and can't wait to get back into the discussion.

I am sure i will take a major bashing for this. but i think the turning point was the whole start of the war. IIRC he told his Admirals they would have until 1945 to prepare the navy. by then he promised them they would have Aircraft Carriers.

Russian Canpaign

I'm convinced what lost Hitler the war - and thank God he did - was his invasion of Russia. No Eastern Front would have meant the Nazi's could have driven harder on England, Africa, Italian Penninsula, etc - at least it would have stretched the war out to perhaps 1950 because Germany, without Russian campaign, would have had twice the army in action than it ended up with in 1944/45. So the turning point I believe was that point when Germany was defeated on its Eastern Front losing hundreds of thousands of troops and assets to the Russians. She was weakened severly after that and also that's when German commanders realised the war was lost and started plotting against Hitler - unsuccessfully.

Originally Posted by Ray89

i think if the germans could keep their alliance with russian troops.. the war would of ended verry differant

I agree with you there.

Originally Posted by Kevin

I agree with you there.

Very big 'if' though IMO. Asking 2 megalomaniacs in charge of 2 superpowers armed to the teeth, with totally opposed ideologies, who both covet the same territory, to keep the peace for any length of time is like asking Wayne Rooney to stay on the pitch for 90 minutes, or Kate Moss to stay off coke, in other words nigh on impossible. War in Russia was inevitable.

To answer those who simply state that Hitler attacking the USSR cost him the war. It's too simple and easy to say that. Germany had chances to defeat the Soviet Union had they done some things differently. They had the chance to make peace with the USSR and revert back to pre-war borders as late as mid 1943, effectively moving the Soviet Union out of the picture. This would have made any Allied invasion in 1944 very difficult indeed, if not impossible. Hitler would have been free to keep almost all of Europe under the jackboot and who knows how history may have changed as a result.

Okay I think there are several mistakes Hitler made throughout the war. 1 of which was stupid. "Battle of Britain". Hitler should of ignored the bombings of Berlin by RAF and continued there attacks against British Air Fields and smashing communication infustructures. By then, Hitler could of resumed the invasion of Britain. Only then, there would of never been a D-Day invasion which then change the course of history as we speak. All of Britains war material would of belong to Germany. Plus without France or Britain capable of future attacks. There would of been virtually no allied shipments to Russia by the atlantic. Which would of crumbled Russia's war material by constant attacks from the Luftwaffe and no way of resupplying its forces in time. Russia would of then collapsed. Plus more countries joining the Axis powers from Asia or the Middle East. The African Campaign, would of gone successful. Conquering Egypt, Iraq, India and so forth. Thus, Europe would of been in German control for many many years. Don't forget the southern part of France would of therefore be conquered once the Facist party in Spain wins the elections. Only then America along with Mexico and Canada would of faced the Axis powers alone. Which we all know the Mexicans would definitely join Axis powers once they realize they could have economic ties plus realizing war is among them. Which then an invasion from Southern Africa to Southern America into Brazil. Then Hawaii would of been taken by axis powers mainly Japan and the American navy pushed back into its own waters. While the future attacks from the Japanese navy and air force pounding the California coast with its battleships & cruisers. German forces invading from Siberia to Alaska. Therefore to the invasion of Canada. Followed by the United States, by a 4 front war (Northwestern front from Canada, Western front from California, Southern front from Mexico and Northeastern front Nova Scotia/Maine). And finally, what all Axis powers want "World Domination".

Yeah, Battle of Britain and Battle of Midway was major turning point of WW2. Also Stalingrad.

I believe in the following (though not ranked by importance)
1) Kursk-Although Stalingrad and Moscow were decisive, Kursk determined the entire outcome of the war. With the lost of Kursk, German hopes for a victory, or even a stalemate were lost completely
2) Leyte Gulf-Although Pearl Harbor and Midway were decisive, Leyte Gulf showed which fleet were superior and the Japanese losses were considerable. It was also like Kursk, which ultimately determined the fate of Japan
3) Of course, Stalingrad, Moscow, Midway, and Pearl Harbor were also decisive battles, with D-day and El Alamein being major, yet I believe those two battles sealed the war's fate to a point which the Germans and the Japanese realized they have lost

On the question of whether Germany had not attacked the Soviet Union: It is an impossibility. Even if Hitler had honored the pact (which was extremely unlikely due to ideological differences and hate for each other), Stalin wouldn't had. Stalin even wrote that if Germany hadn't invaded in 1941, the Soviet Union would have had in 1942, when all preparations for war would have been complete. Nazi and Communism differences were very pronounced, as Nazism were right-wing and Communism were left-wing. Not only that, but anti-Communism feelings were high even before the Eastern Europe campaign in Germany, and the signing of the Anti-Comintern pact by Germany showed how much hatred there were between the two countries

Had Germany beaten Britain then he would have had a free hand in helping Japan with Jets submarines and Missiles, plus the Japanese Navy would have got radar and many other things. He would have had a free run on the oil fields in the Gulf, I would also think he taken the whole of Ireland to close down the whole of the eastern seaboard.
Remember America did not have a jet engine until they were supplied by Britain along with all the latest radar, lets face it even the all the research on Penicillin was handed to America. Germany would have know doubt also taken Greenland along with Iceland putting America at greater risk.