Yes, the Panther was a Medium, a big one at that, but a medium. The IS2 should be compared to the Tiger and King Tiger.

IS-2 weights 46 tons, so its almost the same as Panther. IS-1 had almost the same armor and 85mm gun, so it was a match for Panther, and IS-2 was better. Germans positioned "Panther" as a heavy tank, they hoped it would match KV series of russian tanks.

As for Tiger and Kingtiger, yes they were very heavy, and they had 88mm cannon. But they were very slow, and were very good target for the anti tank artillery and IS-2. Their armor was still penetrated(although it took 2-5 shots to take out one tiger). And it still had gaseline engine.

Well,IS-2 came a litle bit late into the war!

Indeed, but "Panther" Ausf A entered production in summer 1943(because of problems in the production, operation "Zitadel", the famous kursk offence, was postponed) and in kursk battle there were about 400 panthers. Ausf G , which was the best panther mod entered production in march 1944. IS-85(IS-1, 85mm cannon) entered production in october 1943, IS-122(IS-2, 122mm cannon, slightly better armor) entered production in december 1943.

Both tanks entered production at about same time, in 43. For the germany it was already too late, because they were already defeated many times, and kursk was their last big offensive operation.

Here's an interesting link about German panzers..

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/profiles.htm

I know that panther was made quickly and as so with a lot of mwhanical errors so they broke down very quickly.

Well, Rovai, I tend to disagree there. The Panther was a Medium by definition, and the Tigers were Heavys. Weight is suprisingly not relevant, as diffrent countrys set the weight of their Mediums at diffrent scales. Thsi is similar to the russian T series tanks being lighter then the western MBTs, but they are still refered to as MBTs....

Originally Posted by rovai

Indeed, but "Panther" Ausf A entered production in summer 1943(because of problems in the production, operation "Zitadel", the famous kursk offence, was postponed) and in kursk battle there were about 400 panthers. Ausf G , which was the best panther mod entered production in march 1944. IS-85(IS-1, 85mm cannon) entered production in october 1943, IS-122(IS-2, 122mm cannon, slightly better armor) entered production in december 1943.

The Panther tanks at Zitadel as you know were mechanically 'not ready' and a lot of them simply broke down.

It doesn't really matter when these tanks entered service with regards to this discussion. I know the Panther and IS-2 were close to the same weight but the Panther has always been identified as a medium tank by the Wehrmacht, as they already had the 10 tons heavier Tiger 1 in service. Of course it could be argued that the Panther in the Allied Armies would be classed as a heavy!

Originally Posted by rovai

Both tanks entered production at about same time, in 43. For the germany it was already too late, because they were already defeated many times, and kursk was their last big offensive operation.

BTW, you're showing a little bit of bias here. It was my understanding that, up until Kursk, the Germans had only lost one major battle, i.e. the one at Stalingrad. Of course there were plenty of minor losses and victories by both sides up until then but they could not be classed as having any major impact on the war in the East.

You're right to say that Kursk was the last great German offensive in the East. IMO it was a unbelievably stupid decision by Hitler, especially when he delayed it to allow the new Panthers and Elephants to join the fight. All it did was allow the Soviets to build up huge defences that were never going to be broken quickly, if ever. Had Hitler listened to Guderian and Manstien, who wanted to wheel forces around to the south of Kursk and envelop the Soviet Armies on the southern flank, things may have been different. I don't think Germany would have beaten the Soviet Union (they lost that chance in 1942) but I think they could have forced a stalemate.

2 sherman : Germans classified their tanks by gun power, and any tank that had main gun with caliber under 90-80mm was considered medium"Panther" had 75mm KwK gun, which was slightly better than 76mm gun o T-34 "Tiger" had 88mm KwK, and was considered heavy. Allies took armor and speed into consideration. For example, "Matilda" may be considered a medium tank by german classification, because it had weak cannon. Modern tanks definitions are different, there are no light or heavy tanks today. Russians use ERA armor on their tanks, so although their tanks are ligh, they still have same armor protection(if not better) than western tanks.

2 Doppleganger : dont forget about moscow battle, which had huge psychological impact(the first major defeat of German army). Stalingrad and Kursk are two most famous because kursk was the biggest tank(ant other stuff too) battle in the world's history. Stalingrad was bloodiest battle ever and also there is movie about it. There are other battles, less known but still important. Leningrad blockade, crimea and kerchen battle, sevastopol(battle for sevastopol was almost like stalingrad)just to name a few.

B.T.W During kursk battle, "Panthers" had kill ratio of at least 2:1(two T-34 for one panther) against T-34 and about 1:1.5 against KV series(there werent many KV's in kursk battle). Before kursk, soviet command had little information on panther, but they knew germans classified their tank as medium, so they made the mistake by sending T-34 against it, and that resulted in 2:1 kill ratio with panthers. I believe, that kill ratio was even higher(about 3.5:1). After kursk, it became clear that T-34 cannot match panther because of difference in armor(their guns were at the same level).

Rovai wrote:

Germans classified their tanks by gun power, and any tank that had main gun with caliber under 90-80mm was considered medium"Panther" had 75mm KwK gun, which was slightly better than 76mm gun o T-34 "Tiger" had 88mm KwK, and was considered heavy

Right, so as I said, the Panther was a Medium, therefore should not be compared with the IS heavy tank series.