Originally Posted by G-Capo

F-14 is an interceptor.In With in Visual range combat even the old Su-22 would of cut it to pieces.

lol, you bet!



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http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/interviews/snodgrass/migshootdown.wav

I think it was definitely within visual range. My recollection of the maneuvering is that the lead Su-22 fired an Atoll just as they were going abeam, and that the F-14's each made one single turn to reverse in behind them and stuffed Sidewinders up their tailpipes. I believe the range was inside 2 miles for each of the kills, and possibly at about one mile.

EDIT: we'll find out soon enough, I shot an email to my old NROTC commander (who was XO of VF-41 at the time of the incident) to get the details.

EDIT #2: damn, I was close. Here's his take (verbatim email, I'm not even correcting his typos, etc.):

The Libyan fired an atoll prior to the "pass", that is to say that he fired before the two pairs of aircraft passed each other head on. (As soon as the missile was fired, the U.S. Tomcats had clearance to shoot, based on the prescribed rules of engagement.) The Libyans turned southward as soon as they passed the Tomcats. The Tomcats did a high turn to the Libyans six o'clock positions and fired sidewinders at 0.5 to 1.0 mile range. One missile per kill.

The flight involved my squadron, and in fact I was en-route to relieve the two aircraft when it happened, so I heard the entire thing on the radio.

Of the four F-14 aircrew who were involved, one pilot was killed in an aircraft accident in an F-18, one pilot is currently flying commercial airlines, one RIO was killed in a skiing accident, and one RIO was re-trained as a pilot and is currently on active duty as a two-star Admiral.

Oy, this is going waaaaaay off-topic. Sorry.

A piece from Flight Journal magazine on the Iranian F-14As

Originally Posted by phoenix80

In late January 1981 two F-14's from Khatami Air Force Base were on combat patrol over the southwest region of the Persian Gulf. At around noon, Iranian ground radar picked up a target approximately 100 to 200 feet above sea level in the southern region of the Gulf, moving at a high rate of speed toward Bushehr. The ground radar operator directed the F-14's to the incoming object.

At this time the lead F-14 radar picked up the same aircraft and secured a radar lock on the target. After confirming the target was definitely hostile, and flying at a very low altitude and only a little over 30 miles away, the lead F-14 fired an AIM-54A Phoenix missile. The Phoenix hit the Iraqi SU-22 in the middle of the fuselage, cutting it in half.

Thank you Phoenix for the information. I also found it listed on the ACIG section on, "Iranian Air-to-Air Victories 1976-1981." The kill is listed as 'confirmed'.
Reference URL;
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_210.shtml

Originally Posted by icecold

The AIM-54 Phoenix Missile was developed in the 1970s as the principle long-range, air-to-air, defense armament of the F-14 Aircraft.

Actually, the Phoenix Missile was one of the programs from the TFX or F-111 program. The TF-30 engines, which were not designed for a manuevering aircraft... didn't work well for a fighter such as the F-14. The F-111 as a Navy interceptor would have depended upon the maneuvering missile to intercept the target. The same design philosophy as the F-4 Phantom was designed to. The AWG-9 radar and, Phoenix Missile worked well.

To me the most fascinating Iranian A.F. F-14A kill was that of an IrAF Tu-22B Blinder! On March 19, 1988 the Blinder was at 44,000-ft. and traveling above Mach 2.0 the F-14A was also around Mach 2.0, approximately 40-mi. away and, above 40,000 when it fired the Phoenix Missile. The AIM-54A Phoenix Missile traveled in access of 70-mi. to make the kill! (I have no idea of the exact 'intercept geometry'?) It was a confirmed kill and was viewed by an USAF E-3 AWACS!! There was a notice to Saudi aircraft to stay clear of the northern Persian Gulf. I have seen a copy of the document from the USAF to the Saudi AF recommending the suspension of flights in the northern Persian Gulf until further notice. Tom Cooper (SEE NOTE) obtained copy of the document through the Freedom of Information Act and is in the hardbound copy of, "Iranian F-14 Tomcat Units in Combat."
NOTE:
Tom Cooper is the author & co-author of many books on air forces of that region including, "Iranian F-14 Tomcat Units in Combat", "Iran-Iraq War in the Air 1980-1988", "Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat", "Arab MiG-19 & MiG-21 Units in Combat," etc.

The earlier the Iranian AF claimed three other Tu-22Bs on 03/25/84, 04/06/84 and, 04/06/84. The Iranian AF also claims 54 confirmed kills and 7 more unconfirmed kills with the AIM-54A Phoenix Missile!

Oh, back to the original topic, attached is a diagram of the engagement between the USN F-14s and LARAF Su-22's.

For awhile, I remember hearing some oddball stating the Su-22s did not fire a missile at the F-14s, the Fitter dropped an auxilliary fuel tank! I think experiencedF-14 pilots know the difference between a missile launch, the flame of the rocket motor, the missile flying ahead of the launch Su-22 and, a fuel tank dropping away from the Fitter.

Why the Su-22 fired a IR missile at a target in the front hemisphere when that missile had a hard enough time hitting a target when the target is directly ahead and not maneuvering.

Actually, the USN F-14A kills against the "Libyan Arab Republic Air Force" (LARAF) fighters were made over the Gulf of Sidra, not the Persian Gulf.

Originally Posted by phoenix80

In late January 1981 two F-14's from Khatami Air Force Base were on combat patrol over the southwest region of the Persian Gulf. At around noon, Iranian ground radar picked up a target approximately 100 to 200 feet above sea level in the southern region of the Gulf, moving at a high rate of speed toward Bushehr. The ground radar operator directed the F-14's to the incoming object.

The first incident occurred on Aug 19, 1981, as stated before! The first radar contact was made by the E-2C. The E-2C, which directed the F-14As to intercept LARAF Su-22M-2Ks. The Su-22s fired a Atoll Missile (the target/F-14 was totally out of launch of parameters) at the lead F-14 and the missile missed.

Originally Posted by phoenix80

the lead F-14 radar picked up the same aircraft and secured a radar lock on the target. After confirming the target was definitely hostile, and flying at a very low altitude and only a little over 30 miles away, the lead F-14 fired an AIM-54A Phoenix missile. The Phoenix hit the Iraqi SU-22 in the middle of the fuselage, cutting it in half.

The US Navy has 'never' claimed a kill (confirmed or unconfirmed) using the Phoenix Missile! There have been rumors (that's all just rumors) about an F-14A using a Phoenix Missile to kill a Mirage F.1 on the second day of the PGW#1.

Originally Posted by phoenix80

However the second SU-22 managed to evade the scene.

Aaah.... NO! Both Su-22M-2Ks were shot down by the F-14As using Sidewinder -9L missiles.
Both the pilots (L. Mucynski and H.Kleeman) from the F-14s were flown back the USA for press conferences, within a day of the incident. (It was a real 'dog and pony' show.) The audio of the 1981 and 1989 incidents are on MP-3 files on the internet, although the MP-3 files for the 1989 incident are far more numerous than the one for the 1981 incident. You Tube has some home made videos and while the artistry is amateurish, the audio are all part of the MP-3 files the USN released afterwards.

A lot was made by the mass media about the order when the fighters were about 35 miles apart, "warning yellow... weapons hold." This phrase you can only fire your missiles 'if' you feel for sure you have been engaged. This is standard over the Mediterranean Sea. "IF", this incident had happened over the Bearing Straits, the orders would be "weapons tight!" You have no permission to fire on the enemy.... this issue will be settled by the diplomats!!