So why do people hate Israel? - Page 4




 
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December 1st, 2011  
mmarsh
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
Israel 'supplied arms to Argentina during Falklands War' The same people who gave refuge to NAZI war criminals.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...lands-War.html

Israel secretly supplied arms and equipment to Argentina during the Falklands War due to Prime Minister Menachem Begin's personal hatred of the British, a new book discloses.

Air to air missiles, missile radar alert systems, fuel tanks for fighter bombers and gas masks were dispatched from Israel apparently destined for Peru but were then transported on to*Argentina, it claims.
As the British Task Force sent to reclaim the islands after the 1982 Argentine invasion of the*Falklands*began to get the upper hand, Argentina's ruling military junta was left with few choices from which to source replacements for equipment lost in war.
But according to 'Operation Israel: the rearming of Argentina during the dictatorship (1976/1983)' the junta found that Begin was willing to strike an agreement.
Interviews conducted by the author of the book, the Argentine journalist Hernan Dobry, reveal that Begin saw the deals as a form of revenge for the hanging of a personal friend, Dov Gruner, by the British Mandatory Authorities in Palestine in 1947.
After the Argentine Air Force contacted Isrex, the Israeli defence company, a meeting was arranged between representatives of the company and Begin.

Israel Lotersztain, a salesman for Isrex Argentina, said Begin interrupted the Isrex officials as they tried to explain the situation, saying: "You've come to talk badly about the British. Is this going to be used to kill the English? Kadima (go ahead).
"Dov [Gruner] up there is going to be happy with the decision. Obviously, it must be all done perfectly."

Gruner was sentenced to death for his part in an attack on a police station by Irgun, the Zionist underground paramilitary movement which Begin commanded before the state of Israel was established.
As he awaited hanging, he wrote a letter to Begin, thanking him for his support and emphasising his belief in Irgun.

"He [Begin] hated the English above all; everyone had forgotten the British occupation, but not him" according to Lotersztain.

His colleague Jaime Weinstein agreed, saying: "He did all that was possible to help Argentina, selling her weapons during the Malvinas [the Argentine name for the Falklands] conflict."
Israel needed a third party to help with the deal so that the British would not know that it was helping Argentina and this is where Peru, despite the fact that it had tried to broker a peace plan which Argentina rejected, came in.

Dobry reveals that Fernando Belaunde Therry, the Peruvian president, authorised Israel to transport arms and equipment to Lima and Callao, Peru's main port, before being secretly flown to Buenos Aires aboard Aerolineas Argentinas planes.

The Peruvian Air Force signed blank purchase orders, which enabled Argentina to request whatever they needed from Israel.

"The task was to support them in everything we could, and there was no problem to sign a purchase order," said a high-ranking Peruvian officer.
According to the book, which has been previewed in the Argentine newspaper La Nacion, larger planes than the Peruvian Air Force could provide were needed for some heavier equipment leading to the involvement of a Belgian company using the Luxembourg flag which was approved by Mossad.

However, British intelligence services kept track of aircraft landing in Peru and even photographed some of the arrivals.

"A newspaper once published a picture showing the loading on to an Aerolineas Argentinas plane and the British ambassador in Israel took the photo to Begin and hell broke out," said Lotersztain.

"They were aware of the whole operation to the extent that sometimes when we discussed whether
some supplies had arrived we would say, 'let's ask the English'".

There were five flights in total from Tel Aviv to Buenos Aires via Lima, loaded with equipment such as gas masks, radar warning systems to prevent fire from enemy missiles, air to air missiles, duvet jackets and spare parts.

Additional fuel tanks for fighter bombers supplied by Israel were particularly important for Argentina's war effort as they enabled pilots to fly to the Falklands and return to the Argentine mainland without stopping.

Dobry discovered that Israel sent 1,500-litre tanks rather than the standard 1,300-litre models and writes that this meant the British Task Force had to move its fleet further east to prevent further bombings.

"The Jewish state was not only willing to supply the government of Leopoldo Fortunato Galtieri in everything it needed but was also proactive in advising and conveying their experiences in combat," said Dobry.

For all their help, the Argentine's still lost
Count yourself lucky, It could have been worse, Israel might have considered you a "friend", and then you'd really be in trouble.
December 1st, 2011  
senojekips
 
 
Israel and treachery,... they make such a natural pair.

Tell me why I'm not surprised.
December 1st, 2011  
BritinAfrica
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmarsh
Count yourself lucky, It could have been worse, Israel might have considered you a "friend", and then you'd really be in trouble.
What a pity Begin wasn't hanged along side his mate
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December 1st, 2011  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Of course I don't suppose it even occurred to you, that perhaps I like things because they are true and dislike things purely because they are rubbish., or are you trying to tell us that I am unlike yourself, in that you do like rubbish? The illogicality of your statements amaze me.
You think they are true. I have proven many times that you are wrong. That's why I am still waiting for your answers.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
This is also a nice example of how media itself can be manipulated by readers who just pick out what they like. They won't understand what they read, they are just looking for some words, sentences that they love and by doing so distort the whole picture.
Quote:
It's a little hard to "manipulate" video evidence, are you trying to imply that i somehow changed what was filmed? It's unfortunate for your argument that my evidence also just happens to be true, isn't it, having also been reported by the world Press?
My quote was about your link, not about a clip. You better read what is written.
here it is : "You quote someone and the things you like is truth and the things you don't like is rubbish. Like I said before, you are biased and you don't have a clear view on this conflict."

Quote:
Would you care to explain to us all, how you interpret, being shot by the Israeli army whilst going about you daily work as supporting your argument that the army's goal is to avoid killing innocent civilians? It's a known and admitted fact (by members of the military), that this type of act is at worst encouraged, and at the very least, ignored by the IDF.

Here's the latest occurrence of this indiscriminate "terrorise the civil population" game still being played by the IDF.
I'll explain. According to the date that incident is from April 22, 2011, now it is december 1, 2011. The person says "Israeli soldiers open fire on residents of Beit Lahiya almost daily". You said "Here's the latest occurrence".That means that IDF soldiers shot almost 223 times at a "target" and only hit once. Lousy shooters or the data is exaggerated.
BTW you also forgot to mention something in that Oxfam report (Gaza weekly update 27 March- 2 April 2011 OXFAM) : "Palestinian militant groups reportedly fired 3 home made rockets (HMR) and 1 Qassam rocket towards Israel or Israeli forces this week. Last week, there were reports of 37 home made rockets (HMR), 6 Grad rockets, 6 Qassam rockets, 1 industrial manufactured type 107 rocket (a 107 mm rocket with high explosive capacity) and 38 mortars fired by Palestinian armed groups."

Quote:
I am Jewish (by birth), I am also a fully paid up member of several Jewish groups, including the Melbourne Branch of the Australian Jewish Genealogical Society, where I am both well known, and apparently held in reasonable regard by my peers, having been invited on a number of occasions to celebrate the Passover and other Simchas with them at their homes, several being relatives. I also still have a number of relatives living in Israel. As I have said on several occasions, "you are an idiot of the first order" who seemingly can't wait to prove it to anyone who'll listen to you.

For a start, you don't even know the difference between an anti Semite, an anti Jew and an anti Zionist or is it that like so many Zionists you try to blur the lines to cover your own guilt?
I don't care who you are but I know that you have a Israeli-phobia.

Quote:
That sounds like the defence of a very worried man, because you know that for every single video of an alleged atrocity that you can find, I can find dozens and dozens often showing the actual atrocity being committed.
It's more than "what" I post, it is the pure volume of evidence I can post that will drown your pathetic efforts. As I have always pointed the sheer number of UN resolutions raised against Israel is ample proof that they are indeed the worlds newest rogue state. Your efforts would be like comparing a person with a parking fine, against the boss of an organised crime syndicate. LOL
NO, I'm not worried at all, on the contrary, I feel very confident. As long as you keep twisting articles, distort the truth and facts and does not answer my questions I'm not worried at all.
BTW those UN resolutions are non-binding. And if you would doe some research then you would know why Israel does not apply them for now. They did comply to the binding ones, but that is something you forget very easily.
December 1st, 2011  
RayManKiller3
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
Israel 'supplied arms to Argentina during Falklands War' The same people who gave refuge to NAZI war criminals.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...lands-War.html

Israel secretly supplied arms and equipment to Argentina during the Falklands War due to Prime Minister Menachem Begin's personal hatred of the British, a new book discloses.

Air to air missiles, missile radar alert systems, fuel tanks for fighter bombers and gas masks were dispatched from Israel apparently destined for Peru but were then transported on to*Argentina, it claims.
As the British Task Force sent to reclaim the islands after the 1982 Argentine invasion of the*Falklands*began to get the upper hand, Argentina's ruling military junta was left with few choices from which to source replacements for equipment lost in war.
But according to 'Operation Israel: the rearming of Argentina during the dictatorship (1976/1983)' the junta found that Begin was willing to strike an agreement.
Interviews conducted by the author of the book, the Argentine journalist Hernan Dobry, reveal that Begin saw the deals as a form of revenge for the hanging of a personal friend, Dov Gruner, by the British Mandatory Authorities in Palestine in 1947.
After the Argentine Air Force contacted Isrex, the Israeli defence company, a meeting was arranged between representatives of the company and Begin.

Israel Lotersztain, a salesman for Isrex Argentina, said Begin interrupted the Isrex officials as they tried to explain the situation, saying: "You've come to talk badly about the British. Is this going to be used to kill the English? Kadima (go ahead).
"Dov [Gruner] up there is going to be happy with the decision. Obviously, it must be all done perfectly."

Gruner was sentenced to death for his part in an attack on a police station by Irgun, the Zionist underground paramilitary movement which Begin commanded before the state of Israel was established.
As he awaited hanging, he wrote a letter to Begin, thanking him for his support and emphasising his belief in Irgun.

"He [Begin] hated the English above all; everyone had forgotten the British occupation, but not him" according to Lotersztain.

His colleague Jaime Weinstein agreed, saying: "He did all that was possible to help Argentina, selling her weapons during the Malvinas [the Argentine name for the Falklands] conflict."
Israel needed a third party to help with the deal so that the British would not know that it was helping Argentina and this is where Peru, despite the fact that it had tried to broker a peace plan which Argentina rejected, came in.

Dobry reveals that Fernando Belaunde Therry, the Peruvian president, authorised Israel to transport arms and equipment to Lima and Callao, Peru's main port, before being secretly flown to Buenos Aires aboard Aerolineas Argentinas planes.

The Peruvian Air Force signed blank purchase orders, which enabled Argentina to request whatever they needed from Israel.

"The task was to support them in everything we could, and there was no problem to sign a purchase order," said a high-ranking Peruvian officer.
According to the book, which has been previewed in the Argentine newspaper La Nacion, larger planes than the Peruvian Air Force could provide were needed for some heavier equipment leading to the involvement of a Belgian company using the Luxembourg flag which was approved by Mossad.

However, British intelligence services kept track of aircraft landing in Peru and even photographed some of the arrivals.

"A newspaper once published a picture showing the loading on to an Aerolineas Argentinas plane and the British ambassador in Israel took the photo to Begin and hell broke out," said Lotersztain.

"They were aware of the whole operation to the extent that sometimes when we discussed whether
some supplies had arrived we would say, 'let's ask the English'".

There were five flights in total from Tel Aviv to Buenos Aires via Lima, loaded with equipment such as gas masks, radar warning systems to prevent fire from enemy missiles, air to air missiles, duvet jackets and spare parts.

Additional fuel tanks for fighter bombers supplied by Israel were particularly important for Argentina's war effort as they enabled pilots to fly to the Falklands and return to the Argentine mainland without stopping.

Dobry discovered that Israel sent 1,500-litre tanks rather than the standard 1,300-litre models and writes that this meant the British Task Force had to move its fleet further east to prevent further bombings.

"The Jewish state was not only willing to supply the government of Leopoldo Fortunato Galtieri in everything it needed but was also proactive in advising and conveying their experiences in combat," said Dobry.

For all their help, the Argentine's still lost
I am sorry, but many countries do this, no sense just trying to point out Israel on it. Britain done it to others, U.S have, and many other countries.

Unfortunately one administration can ruin a whole nation's reputation (George Bush for example, Reagan also wasn't the best at foriegn relations).


We supplied Iraq for a grudge against Iran during the Iraq-Iran war and so did many other U.N/NATO members. U.K gave them money to continue the war (after all, war makes good business).
December 1st, 2011  
84RFK
 
 
I recognized one of the pictures in that MEET THE ISRAELI SETTLERS youtube flick.

I remember seeing that particular fellow in a documentray from Hebron where they did a kind of "Orange March" through the Arab parts of Hebron, including some kind of market place.

A moment before they started out the camera captured an IDF trooper with his back to the camera, saying insomewhat broken, but clear English: "It's same every week, they walk into Arab district and we have to guard them all the way, they provoke arabs, and arabs start throwing rock, then they start to shoot their guns, and we must go between them and arabs, and then they shoot at arabs and us, they are crazy."

Obviously not the kind of service he had hoped for when it came to defeding Israel.
December 1st, 2011  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
Israel 'supplied arms to Argentina during Falklands War' The same people who gave refuge to NAZI war criminals.
[url]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/falklandislands/8463934/Israel-supplied-arms-to-Argentina-during-Falklands-War.html[/url
I hope you don't mind that I shortened your quote.

I found an interesting forum that also discussed the falklands war, and one of the members posted this. I cannot confirm it but I think it's true. (I only list the deliveries during the Falkland war years). The forum is here.

Israel > Argentina
1981-1983:
200 Shafrir-2 SRAAM (ordered 1981) for Nesher and Mirage-3C combat aircraft
19 ex-Israeli Mirage-3CJ and 3 Mirage 3BJ fighter aircraft (ordered 1982)
1984
10 EL/M-2106 Air search radar (ordered 1983)For use with TCM-20 and Rh-202 20mm AA guns

Peru > Argentina
1982
10 ex-Peruvian Mirage-5P FGA aircraft (ordered 1982); on loan during 1982 Falklands War, then bought
120 ex-Peruvian Strela-2/SA-7 Grail Man Portable SAM (ordered 1982); aid during Falklands War

UK > Argentine
1983-1984
8 Olympus TM-3B Gas turbine (ordered 1978) for 4 MEKO-360 (Almirante Brown) frigates from FRG
8 Tyne RM-1C Gas turbine (ordered 1978) for 4 MEKO-360 (Almirante Brown) frigates from FRG

USA > Argentine
1982
1 Learjet-35/36 Light transport ac (ordered 1981) for navigation systems control, survey and reconnaissance;
1983
4-5 L-188 Electra Transport aircraft (ordered 1982) Second-hand; 1 more delivered for spares only; modified in Argentina for Maritime Patrol
1984-1985
50 Mk-37 AS torpedo (ordered 1977) Ex-US; for Santa Cruz (TR-1700) submarines

----------------------

In january 1948 The Jordan Legion received a steady supply of arms from Britain through the Suez Canal, at least until May 1948, including a large number of 25 pounder cannon at the beginning of 1948. Hagana agents purchased 20 Auster light aircraft in Britain, sold for scrap, rebuilt them and brought them to Palestine for use of the Haganah.
December 1st, 2011  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
You think they are true. I have proven many times that you are wrong. That's why I am still waiting for your answers.
I have provided evidence of all of my statements and you have usually provided opinions, sorry. The reason that i don't answer again is that you tried this "circular argument" earlier and I am awake to your childlike ploy of just denying answers and re asking them in a different way hoping for a different answer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
My quote was about your link, not about a clip. You better read what is written.
here it is : "You quote someone and the things you like is truth and the things you don't like is rubbish. Like I said before, you are biased and you don't have a clear view on this conflict."
Either way i disproved your point, so what are you trying to say? there was absolutely nothing wrong with my link except in your eyes because it destroyed your rather pathetic argument that the IDF's aim was to protect (Palestinian) civilians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
I'll explain. According to the date that incident is from April 22, 2011, now it is december 1, 2011. The person says "Israeli soldiers open fire on residents of Beit Lahiya almost daily". You said "Here's the latest occurrence".That means that IDF soldiers shot almost 223 times at a "target" and only hit once. Lousy shooters or the data is exaggerated.
If your pathetic excuse was legitimate, which it is not, that would mean that you feel it is perfectly reasonable for the IDF to deliberately and randomly shoot at civilians going about their daily work? I can't help that they are not able to always hit their targets, either way it is a War Crime typical of the daily harassment of Palestinians being used to provoke a reaction so that Israel can react disproportionately further exacerbating the situation. The fact that it happens so regularly is ample evidence that this behaviour is a policy decision by the Israelis to commit these crimes.
IDF Shoot Palestinian Farmer 18-02-2009

IDF Indiscriminate Shooting at Civilians 05-02-2009

IDF Indiscriminate Shooting at Civilians 09-05-2009

And these are just some of the incidents that were caught on video.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
BTW you also forgot to mention something in that Oxfam report (Gaza weekly update 27 March- 2 April 2011 OXFAM) : "Palestinian militant groups reportedly fired 3 home made rockets (HMR) and 1 Qassam rocket towards Israel or Israeli forces this week. Last week, there were reports of 37 home made rockets (HMR), 6 Grad rockets, 6 Qassam rockets, 1 industrial manufactured type “107” rocket (a 107 mm rocket with high explosive capacity) and 38 mortars fired by Palestinian armed groups."
Yes, yes, we all know that these groups are all rabidly anti Israel.(sarcasm) The amount of explosives shot at Israel is ludicrously miniscule when the reverse is taken into account. Not to mention the constant provocation by the IDF as seen in the videos above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
I don't care who you are but I know that you have a Israeli-phobia.
What,... fell on your @rse again making stupid assumptions? If you wanted to know what I am you only had to ask, I'm not ashamed of my views. I am a proud and admitted anti Zionist, and you are an idiot who supports the worlds most virulent and dangerous regime that is the root cause of virtually all of the Islamic terrorism in the world today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
NO, I'm not worried at all, on the contrary, I feel very confident. As long as you keep twisting articles, distort the truth and facts and does not answer my questions I'm not worried at all.
BTW those UN resolutions are non-binding. And if you would doe some research then you would know why Israel does not apply them for now. They did comply to the binding ones, but that is something you forget very easily.
The only reason for your confidence is that you haven't the reasoning power to understand that you are making an absolute idiot of yourself. (Not that I mind that)
December 1st, 2011  
RayManKiller3
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
you are an idiot who supports the worlds most virulent and dangerous regime that is the root cause of virtually all of the Islamic terrorism in the world today.

I disagree with that 1st statement. There are many more virulent and dangerous regimes; Iran (when/if they get nukes) and North Korea are much more dangerous in terms of world safety.

I don't contest that last part, as they do seem to be a major reason for Islamic terrorism, but it is foolish to fall for the islamic terrorist's ways by using this as a reason to condem Israel.

If someone was bullying another person, is it truely his fault that, that person decides to kill himself and all those around him? While we do resent the person that caused it, you really can't trial him for it.... Attacking innocent people (which terrorist do) is shameful and should never be supported, even if it is caused by another's actions.

PS: Did you edit your post? I read over your post and can't find this statement I quoted from you.
December 2nd, 2011  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayManKiller3
I disagree with that 1st statement. There are many more virulent and dangerous regimes; Iran (when/if they get nukes) and North Korea are much more dangerous in terms of world safety.
Tell me how many people have been killed either directly, or in defence of their lunatic policies, by either of these two countries in the last ten years?

Also it is no longer a question of "if and when Israel gets nukes", they already have them. In view of their past behaviour and total lack of morality and responsibility, this further reinforces my argument. With that in mind, how can we reasonably expect their neighbouring enemies to not want them at any cost. This is merely another example of Israel dragging the world further towards instability and possible nuclear war.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayManKiller3
I don't contest that last part, as they do seem to be a major reason for Islamic terrorism, but it is foolish to fall for the islamic terrorist's ways by using this as a reason to condem Israel.
Well who would you condemn,... Andorra perhaps?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayManKiller3
If someone was bullying another person, is it truely his fault that, that person decides to kill himself and all those around him? While we do resent the person that caused it, you really can't trial him for it.... Attacking innocent people (which terrorist do) is shameful and should never be supported, even if it is caused by another's actions.
The use of whatever force is necessary, is not terrorism when defending your own property as the Palestinians have been. Evidence of this principle is seen in such civil laws a those which allow any person to use "such force as is necessary" to protect their lives and property. Below is more of the quote from a booklet published by Jews for Justice in Palestine so we can see what they think of it. This is why i never blame the "Jews" but the Zionist element responsible for their policies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jews for Justice in Palestine
The standard Zionist position is that they showed up in Palestine in the late 19th century to reclaim their ancestral homeland. Jews bought land and started building up the Jewish community there. They were met with increasingly violent opposition from the Palestinian Arabs, presumably stemming from the Arabs’ inherent anti-Semitism. The Zionists were then forced to defend themselves and, in one form or another, this same situation continues up to today.

The problem with this explanation is that it is simply not true, as the documentary evidence in this booklet will show.
What really happened was that the Zionist movement, from the beginning, looked forward to a practically complete dispossession of the indigenous Arab population so that Israel could be a wholly Jewish state, or as much as was possible. Land bought by the Jewish National Fund was held in the name of the Jewish people and could never be sold or even leased back to Arabs (a situation which continues to the present).
The Arab community, as it became increasingly aware of the Zionists’ intentions, strenuously opposed further Jewish immigration and land buying because it posed a real and imminent danger to the very existence of Arab society in Palestine. Because of this opposition, the entire Zionist project never could have been realized without the military backing of the British. The vast majority of the population of Palestine, by the way, had been Arabic since the seventh century A.D. (Over 1200 years)

In short, Zionism was based on a faulty, colonialist world view that the rights of the indigenous inhabitants didn’t matter. The Arabs’ opposition to Zionism wasn’t based on anti-Semitism but rather on a totally reasonable fear of the dispossession of their people.
This is not terrorism in any way shape or form.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayManKiller3
PS: Did you edit your post? I read over your post and can't find this statement I quoted from you.
As I remember I removed it as i felt there was no need to point out the obvious. It would go right over his head anyway.
 


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