So why do people hate Israel?

[hamidreza]

Originally Posted by VDKMS:
The majority of the Egyptians want to abide by the accords with Israel.

I doubt it. The parliament election result says another thing.

The motherland of the Palestinians doesn't excist anymore.

It means that they had a motherland but somebody occupied it.

They lived for centuries in the Ottoman Empire and never asked for their own motherland.

They didn't need to ask their motherland because they were living there.

Egypt is at a crossroad. They either go the Islamic way (anti Israel) or the secular way (upholding the accords with Israel). With the former they will lose a lot of money (tourists will stay away, the flow of US billions of $ will stop and the army and air force will have to scramble to get their US products operational - and the Generals are very well aware of that), with the latter they will prosper.

Don't judge about ME people just with dollar, euro, .... .As I living with them and I know them, they do something that seem strange for west.

 

[senojekips]

It's not all about right or wrong, because those things change with time (history!). When the British invaded Australia it was right at that time just as the Belgians were doing in the Congo was right at that time. Nowadays those two things are looked at as wrong.

You are confusing the legal and moral values, the legality may change, morality does not. No,.. it was just as wrong at that time, but it was regarded as acceptable, and there were no international conventions forbidding it.

 

[Yossarian]

You are confusing the legal and moral values, the legality may change, morality does not. No,.. it was just as wrong at that time, but it was regarded as acceptable, and there were no international conventions forbidding it.

Morality is based off the society who creates it, it's all a piece of perception, hence why there are so many different views from around the globe on this topic.

You have dozens of mindset's all vying for different notions of what is right or wrong or best for the region.

 

[senojekips]

Morality is based off the society who creates it, it's all a piece of perception, hence why there are so many different views from around the globe on this topic.

Like VD, you are confusing acceptability (legality) with morality.

I dunno who said it, but it is a recognised principle relating to Ethics. "Legality is temporal whereas morality is eternal", or words to that effect.

 

[Yossarian]

Like VD, you are confusing acceptability (legality) with morality.

I dunno who said it, but it is a recognised principle relating to Ethics. "Legality is temporal whereas morality is eternal", or words to that effect.

Lest we forget, that even terms of legality are like all human ideas, maluable to the situation.

 

[senojekips]

Lest we forget, that even terms of legality are like all human ideas, maluable to the situation.

Exactly, hence the fact that the wealthy can buy legality. The Legality of an action is determined by one's power (wealth).

This is not so with morality.

 

[VDKMS]

I doubt it. The parliament election result says another thing.

Parliament elections were not about accords with Israel. A poll put a minor majority in favor of the accords with Israel.

It means that they had a motherland but somebody occupied it.

The "motherland" have had different names, one of them was The Kingdom of Israel, none was Palestine. Others were Seleucid Empire, Roman Empire, Palmyrene Empire and many others.

They didn't need to ask their motherland because they were living there.

They lived there but didn't rule and didn't mind. Jews did.

Don't judge about ME people just with dollar, euro, .... .As I living with them and I know them, they do something that seem strange for west.

When ME people come to us we respect their culture, when we go to the ME they do not respect our culture. When ME people come to us they are allowed to build houses of worship when our people go to the ME they are not allowed to do that. Muslims are allowed to build mosques in Israel, jews are not allowed to build synagogues in muslim countries.
Muslims are commanded to pray five times each day, ever wondered why?

 

[senojekips]

The "motherland" have had different names, one of them was The Kingdom of Israel, none was Palestine. Others were Seleucid Empire, Roman Empire, Palmyrene Empire and many others.

It was certaily the motherland of the Palestinians, but none of the others they, like the Jews, were merely temporary occupiers who came and went.

They lived there but didn't rule and didn't mind. Jews did.

Which means absolutely nothing. The Ottomans and others also ruled it , and similarly have no claim or connection to the land whatsoever.

 

[MontyB]

It was certaily the motherland of the Palestinians, but none of the others they, like the Jews, were merely temporary occupiers who came and went.

Surely this is only true if you accept the bibles claim of the exodus?

Personally I do not accept that and believe that Judaism is indigenous to the area however it was one of many religions in region as part of the Canaanite empire.

Which is why I suspect that if you were to follow the DNA path of Jews with traceable ancestry in the region back as far as possible you will find common links with Palestinians who can do the same in other words at their root they are the same people following different religions.

However this does not justify or excuse the "foreign" Jewish invasion of the region post 1800s and most recently since WW2, in my opinion they are little more than colonists.

 

[senojekips]

Surely this is only true if you accept the bibles claim of the exodus?

Or the DNA evidence that most Ashkenazi Jews were Khazars who came from Asia Minor, Whatever, they were certainly not indigenous to the area.

Personally I do not accept that and believe that Judaism is indigenous to the area however it was one of many religions in region as part of the Canaanite empire.

Which is why I suspect that if you were to follow the DNA path of Jews with traceable ancestry in the region back as far as possible you will find common links with Palestinians who can do the same in other words at their root they are the same people following different religions.

If you ask a dozen Rabbinical scholars how one determines who is a Jew and who is not, you will get a hundred different answers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conver...ts_to_resolve_the_.22Who_is_a_Jew.3F.22_issue

One thing that is coming out, is that Jews per se, are not who they thought they were. The Ashkenazim are predominantly Khazar proselytes and similarly the Sephardim are North African Bedouin proselytes. The funny thing being that a great number of these people do not recognise proselytes as being of the true faith.

However this does not justify or excuse the "foreign" Jewish invasion of the region post 1800s and most recently since WW2, in my opinion they are little more than colonists.

 

[VDKMS]

Or the DNA evidence that most Ashkenazi Jews were Khazars who came from Asia Minor, Whatever, they were certainly not indigenous to the area.

Paternal DNA of most Jews, wherever they live(d), is traced back to the region of Palestine.

 

[VDKMS]

Surely this is only true if you accept the bibles claim of the exodus?

Personally I do not accept that and believe that Judaism is indigenous to the area however it was one of many religions in region as part of the Canaanite empire.

Which is why I suspect that if you were to follow the DNA path of Jews with traceable ancestry in the region back as far as possible you will find common links with Palestinians who can do the same in other words at their root they are the same people following different religions.

However this does not justify or excuse the "foreign" Jewish invasion of the region post 1800s and most recently since WW2, in my opinion they are little more than colonists.

The foreign jewish immigration was mostly a legal one. The Ottoman Empire and later the British mandate allowed them and foreign Arabs (they immigrated too!) into the region of Palestine. If muslim clerics wouldn't have started to incite hatred against the Jews everything would have been handled much more peaceful.
A lot of Arab Palestinians were very glad to sell their property at much elevated prices. Arab leaders were, at first, glad with the Jewish immigration because they transefered the region Palestine from one of the poorest into one of the richest regions in the Arab world. They were against a Jewish state because a non-muslim state is not allowed on muslim ground. Take away the fanatic clerics (from both sides) and a solution to the conflict wil have a much better chance.

 

[hamidreza]

Originally Posted by VDKMS
Parliament elections were not about accords with Israel. A poll put a minor majority in favor of the accords with Israel.

Yes. That was not about accords with Israel but the elected people are anti-Israel or at least are not as friend as Mobarak regime. the Israeli politicians' anxiety about Egypt's events confirm my opinion.

The "motherland" have had different names, one of them was The Kingdom of Israel, none was Palestine. Others were Seleucid Empire, Roman Empire, Palmyrene Empire and many others.
They lived there but didn't rule and didn't mind. Jews did.

this reasoning is just playing with the words and I don't want to enter this game. there are millions of Palestinian in the neighbor countries and you can still find a lot of them who can remember their houses, their lands, their families or relatives who were killed and also the other Zionists crimes at that time. They might not have known the Ottoman Empire, Roman Empire, Palmyrene Empire and many others but at least they know they gave their land from their fathers and their fathers gave from their grandfathers too and so on.
I don't know what the connection is between you and the Israel but I am sure if I brought the God from the sky on the earth as a witness you wouldn't accept the true.

When ME people come to us we respect their culture, when we go to the ME they do not respect our culture. When ME people come to us they are allowed to build houses of worship when our people go to the ME they are not allowed to do that. Muslims are allowed to build mosques in Israel, jews are not allowed to build synagogues in muslim countries.
Muslims are commanded to pray five times each day, ever wondered why?

This opinion is a kind of racism thought and the Israel racist regime is based on these thoughts.

 

[senojekips]

Paternal DNA of most Jews, wherever they live(d), is traced back to the region of Palestine.

For a start Judaism is a matriarchal society that notwithstanding, both the Hebrew Scriptures and archeological evidence agree (a rare occurrence), that Jews arrived in the middle east no longer than 3000+/- years ago. So their origins are certainly not from Palestine.

 

[Asef]

Muslims are allowed to build mosques in Israel, jews are not allowed to build synagogues in muslim countries.

Not correct. There are Jewish communities in many Muslim countries. There are also synagogues.

 

[RayManKiller3]

Not correct. There are Jewish communities in many Muslim countries. There are also synagogues.

You lost me when you said "many". Most Arab countries do NOT have synagogues from what I know. I do not think they allow them, note if you can label more that do it would be nice. I tried searching and only found Turkey (but then again I only spent 5 mins searching it). The only one I can think of immediately is Turkey (if I am correct).

While there are Jewish communities in Muslim countries, there is a great deal less of what would be thanks to Muslim countries expelling Jews. Just saying . Which I believe that Israel has no more dedication to bringing back Palestinian refugees in their country as long as the Jewish people expelled from other Muslim countries are not able to return to whatever country they were expelled from.


I don't know, maybe it is just us that believe while we should not forget the past, we must not keep looking at the past hoping to solve solutions of the future. Sometimes it is a good idea to forget the past and look towards the future. That is what the 2 state solution does best in the short and long term. The Australian way of doing it is not correct due to the region having been travelled through for thousands of years. South Afirca is still a country in horrible shape.

I believe VDKMS has the better outlook on this than you, Seno, because it looks out for those in the region. Economic prosperity is a good way to lessen the tensions in both countries as less people become desperate and more educated.

The U.N including U.S should fully pressure both sides into compromising so they can get this Palestinian state up. I do not think Palestinians should stop negotiations with Israel because Israel is building settlements that will become theres once they get their state. They should show they are trying to do this 100% and pressure should go on Israel if they do not cooperate. I do not at all agree with, Seno using the global terrorism as a reason to condemn or "remove" Israel from where it is now. Terrorism should be despised completely and no sway should be given to it.

All in all I am completely trying to avoid responding in this thread as I can see no one is going to budge.

 

[VDKMS]

For a start Judaism is a matriarchal society that notwithstanding, both the Hebrew Scriptures and archeological evidence agree (a rare occurrence), that Jews arrived in the middle east no longer than 3000+/- years ago. So their origins are certainly not from Palestine.

According to DNA the origins of the people who lived in the Palestinian region came from India. There's also the theory that Jesus also came from India and that Christianity is a mix of Judaism and Hinduism.

 

[VDKMS]

Yes. That was not about accords with Israel but the elected people are anti-Israel or at least are not as friend as Mobarak regime. the Israeli politicians' anxiety about Egypt's events confirm my opinion.

Israels anxiety is because constant values are gone. They used to have enemies and friends (like all other countries), but now everything is more fluent. There's a big change going on in the ME and they don't know where that will lead to. It's a pity that the Israeli government didn't take advantage of that. They should have reached out to the Palestinians. They've lost a big opportunity. Wrong government at the wrong time.

this reasoning is just playing with the words and I don't want to enter this game. there are millions of Palestinian in the neighbor countries and you can still find a lot of them who can remember their houses, their lands, their families or relatives who were killed and also the other Zionists crimes at that time. They might not have known the Ottoman Empire, Roman Empire, Palmyrene Empire and many others but at least they know they gave their land from their fathers and their fathers gave from their grandfathers too and so on.

It's not only about right or wrong but also about rule of law.
In the 19th century the Turks started with registering properties. People with the right age were called into the Ottoman army. Jews nor the Arabs wanted to join. Jews left (propably because they had relatives outside the country to go to), Arabs registered it on an older person so the Turks didn't know about jong men who should have joined the army. The end result was the same. Jews and Arabs didn't join the army. Unfortunately for the Arabs, that trick haunted them when they had to prove that the property was theirs in the next century.

I don't know what the connection is between you and the Israel but I am sure if I brought the God from the sky on the earth as a witness you wouldn't accept the true.
This opinion is a kind of racism thought and the Israel racist regime is based on these thoughts.

I have no connection whatsoever with Israel, unless you call buying a fiance and wedding ring in a Jewish quarter a connection. I've never said that Israel is right and the Palestinians are wrong.
When you base your reasoning on rule of law you will get another outcome than with right or wrong.
I believe there will be someday a two state solution but not with the current governments and I strongly believe that the solution comes through economics.

 

[Asef]

I said that there were many communities, not that there were many synagogues.
And a Synagogue need not be a huge monumental building. It may be an old factory building.

Jews who live in these countries are allowed to practice their religion.

Algeria
Egypt
Iran
Iraq
Lebanon
Libya
Morocco
Syria
Tunisia
Yemen

Today, Iran's Jewish population is the second largest in the Middle East, after Israel. Although Jews are occasionally subjected to violence by Palestinian protesters in Syria, the government has taken strict protective measures, including arresting assailants and guarding the remaining synagogues.

Just a supplementary question
How many of you have traveled in the Middle East?

 

[VDKMS]

Not correct. There are Jewish communities in many Muslim countries. There are also synagogues.

I did noty say there are no synagogues in muslim countries. I am talking about building one.

Libyan Jew blocked from Tripoli synagogue.

According to Muslim jurists, the following legal ordinances must be enforced on Zimmis (Christians and Jews alike) who reside among Muslims:

"Zimmis are not allowed to build new churches, temples, or synagogues. They are allowed to renovate old churches or houses of worship provided they do not allow to add any new construction. "Old churches" are those which existed prior to Islamic conquests and are included in a peace accord by Muslims. Construction of any church, temple, or synagogue in the Arab Peninsula (Saudi Arabia) is prohibited. It is the land of the Prophet and only Islam should prevail there. Yet, Muslims, if they wish, are permitted to demolish all non-Muslim houses of worship in any land they conquer."