So why do people hate Israel? - Page 19




 
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December 17th, 2011  
Yossarian
 
 
I support a peaceful and just coexsitance.

But if you take all the land back, what of the Israelies?

And imagine the massive problem this would create, how is that better?

I am being not pro Israeli, but what would YOU do with them?

You have failed to answer this over and over.

I am really not trying to be confrontational, nor will I label you based off my judgements, as you have me, I will except what you wish to and have expressed as your stance.
December 17th, 2011  
RayManKiller3
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
On the whole I agree with this guy though the only way peace will be attained in the region is to remove the USA from the equation or at least the right of veto.
To Monty:
I don't agree with that. I am sure you know of U.S citizen's frustration with the U.N. Why should a country who pays more than all the rest in the U.N have to give up higher authority rights? This will not go unnoticed about U.S people.


U.S wants the best for both sides, however both sides are playing "hard negotiations". Why should this be seen as U.S fault solely (which you seem to be saying). Israel's main ally is in fact the U.S. Like I said before, as long as Arabs are doing terrorism in the name of Palestinians, the U.S won't feel a need to press Israel into negotiations (as we see their actions as wreckless, but also a way they have to survive). What would you do if you were/are surrounded by complete hostile neighbors?

I do agree that U.S should push Israel to negotiations way more than it does now; however, what if your plan backfires? What if the Palestinians show they truely do not want peace? Are you going to support them still?


To Seno:

I agree with Yossarian; this problem has been going on way too long (and far too complicated) for a simple answer. What you suggest is a great way to send the region into a severe humanitarian crisis (which people will then call the U.S to settle). Either way we go, were still screwed, so we must try to screw up less.

What happens when Palestine get their state? Do you truely believe all the terrorist organizations are going to disband and put down arms? That is kind of naive... This is why your blaming Israel for GT (Global terrorism) means shiznips to me and I couldn't care if their actions bought about GT, it is still unforgivable and should hold no true defense. To also add into this, there is a reason GT started after the creation of Israel. It is not because of just Israel, but it is seen as an accomplished strategy. Media, is what allows terrorism to work and it is the main reason we are just seeing it.



The only real solution to this problem is as we know a 2 state solution:

Jarusalem of course should be governed by the U.N. Israel should not have to accept the Refugees back (for obvious reasons), Palestine should be demilitarized and their border recognized.


A 1 state solution will not work. At this current time, it is a great solution if you want a humanitarian crisis. As I said before: I don't see no one else blasting about how the Jews were expelled from all other countries (Arabs mostly). It is funny how its okay for these Jews (who had nothing to do with Israel) can get their stuff stolen, be eradicated, and ignored, but Israel is a big problem....
December 17th, 2011  
Yossarian
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayManKiller3

A 1 state solution will not work. At this current time, it is a great solution if you want a humanitarian crisis. As I said before: I don't see no one else blasting about how the Jews were expelled from all other countries (Arabs mostly). It is funny how its okay for these Jews (who had nothing to do with Israel) can get their stuff stolen, be eradicated, and ignored, but Israel is a big problem....

I did not mention out getting burned for this,... but I guess I wll risk it now,

Most of Israel's Arab neighbors either have unequal rights, or direct oppression of Jews living there, this, whether intentionally or not, has pressed more Jews to immigrate to Israel, but do not mistake this to a endless and pointless finger pointing contest.

This has been going of for as long as the state of Israel has exsisted.

As if you are Jewish, from what I can piece together, you cannot even buy land in Palestiene without putting the owner at grave risk.

I KNOW Israel's misjustices to Palestiene. But both parties are as guilty as sin of discrimination and of being the victim.

As for Mr. RayManKiller's qoute of a two State Solution. That's the best we can do for now, and as stated I will support the elmination of misjustices to either side, and coexsisitance, it will be hard, there will be extremists who will oppose peace, on both sides.

But for anything to happen, for us to escape this Medivel attitude and all the ensuring carnage this entails, BOTH sides must give to each other, or BOTH will not gain anything...If anything will lose everything...
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December 17th, 2011  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yossarian
I support a peaceful and just coexsitance.

But if you take all the land back, what of the Israelies?

And imagine the massive problem this would create, how is that better?

I am being not pro Israeli, but what would YOU do with them?

You have failed to answer this over and over.

I am really not trying to be confrontational, nor will I label you based off my judgements, as you have me, I will except what you wish to and have expressed as your stance.
No, your statement was not confrontational, it was illogical to the point of being just plain stupid. The whole debate is about ownership and you start by make a sweeping statement that ownership can no longer be considered.

You are jumping ahead of yourself, any decisions as to what happens to the Israelis will be made in the course of the negotiations. Nothing can even be started, until the ownership is settled.

Anyway, you are so worried as to what will happen to the Israelis, I notice you haven't even mentioned once, "what is going to happen to the Palestinians". I think that this is a pretty good indication that your mind is already made up.

If you want my personal opinion as to what should happen to the Israelis, I'd say, "you moved here, so you can move out if you don't want to live under the new ruling".
December 17th, 2011  
Yossarian
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
If you want my personal opinion as to what should happen to the Israelis, I'd say, "you moved here, so you can move out if you don't want to live under the new ruling".
That may have worked 60 years ago, but now that generations where born and raised there that is almost ridiculous.

The massive potential of violence, potential of extremism on both sides, would create a humanitarian issue that would cripple any newly formed Palestienian state and throw the region into an almost third world state.

Imagine if you will 6 million pissed off and scared residents.

Now 6 million pissed off and worried Palestienians, this helps neither side and would cause great hard ship for both peoples.

I am worried for the people, not the banners.
December 17th, 2011  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayManKiller3
To Monty:
I don't agree with that. I am sure you know of U.S citizen's frustration with the U.N. Why should a country who pays more than all the rest in the U.N have to give up higher authority rights? This will not go unnoticed about U.S people.
As I have explained many times in the past, if the US wants out of the UN then go.

However that will never happen because in doing so you will be handing over what little influence you have left in world affairs to the next tier of nations and that will spell the end of the USA as a superpower.

So the beauty of this is that the USA needs the UN as much as the UN needs the USA probably more so you arent going anywhere which means if a shake up of the UN meant removing the power of veto then you will learn to live with it.


Quote:
U.S wants the best for both sides, however both sides are playing "hard negotiations". Why should this be seen as U.S fault solely (which you seem to be saying). Israel's main ally is in fact the U.S. Like I said before, as long as Arabs are doing terrorism in the name of Palestinians, the U.S won't feel a need to press Israel into negotiations (as we see their actions as wreckless, but also a way they have to survive). What would you do if you were/are surrounded by complete hostile neighbors?
No it doesn't the US has repeatedly shown time and again it has sided with Israel and it is seen as the US's fault solely because the US solely is vetoing anything Israel does not want therefore if the US wishes to take part in negotiations it should do so only as a supporter of Israel and stop pretending it is impartial.

As to what I would do if I was surrounded by hostile neighbours that is simple I would:
A) Stop pissing them off.
B) Find a new neighbourhood.

Quote:
I do agree that U.S should push Israel to negotiations way more than it does now; however, what if your plan backfires? What if the Palestinians show they truely do not want peace? Are you going to support them still?
No they shouldn't push Israel to negotiations they should be dropped from the middle east peace process altogether and any agreement should be negotiated with and ratified by the UN general assembly.

Why wouldn't I support them?
You seem to have missed the bit where I believe they are right to fight for their land and I hope that with time they will get better at it because I suspect it will only be when Israel has the real chance to lose that they will make peace.
December 17th, 2011  
LeEnfield
 
 
I think the word HATE on this title is wrongly used, I think what most people want to see is fair play between the two sides and as this is sadly lacking on one side, it then pushes the other side into the use of violence.
December 17th, 2011  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yossarian
That may have worked 60 years ago, but now that generations where born and raised there that is almost ridiculous.
Oh you are telling us nothing, we all know that it worked 60 years ago and we know that it is still working today. You seem to think they there is going to be a painless solution to this, (this is the classic Zionist view as admitted by them), well I can assure you that there is not, and this is why we must see that justice is done, by which I imply justice for those who have been treated like animals for the last 100 years in their own country. What happens to the oppressors I really don't care. personally I hope that they get what they deserve, but I doubt that the civilised world would allow the Palestinians to do to the Israelis what they have done to the Palis, and as for their leaders there is no way, as hanging is now frowned upon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yossarian
Imagine if you will 6 million pissed off and scared residents.
There have been millions of pissed off residents there for the last 100 years, but when the perpetrators thought that they would never be called to answer for it, no one cared.
December 17th, 2011  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yossarian
From what I see now is, we are so far past the point of who rightfully owns the land, that we have no choice but to try to find every avenue for peace between these two groups of people.

I DON"T LIKE IT, so please, this is not really my opion on that first bit.

But, even if you legitimize the claims, what does that solve? If either side settles the claim and gives it to the other, a massive humanitarian crisis will be created that could pass the state of the current one with Palestienians.

I will say this as well.

ALL Palestinians should be given the rights and respect of citizenship, either to their own state, or that of Israel by THEIR INDIVIDUAL CHOICE.

I hate this situation guys I do, but I will not cease to hope for and support any idea of findng a way to give equality and a better quality of life for Palestinians, as well as free travel to all Relgious areas throughout the occupied territories and Israel for all Muslims, Jews, and Christians.

Guys, if anyone could kindly explain, kindly please, IF one side backed down and gave claim to the entire region, what of the other peoples?

Will they be evicted or eradicated?

These are two cultures with strong ancient cultural history in this region.

Looking at the really screwed up situation now,

What can today's world do to assist in ensuring all the peoples in this region are given equal rights, free travel, and a franchised acknowledgment of their rights in the region of Palestiene/ Israel?

I would hate to see either side suffer any further injustices or crimes.

And will not abandon any hope that a lasting and just peace and equality can one day exisist for all peoples in this region...

Regardless of who owns the land.
I like this, really I do. The problem is religion. Islam never alows to be taken over. Radical Islam gets their power from poor people. So you battle Radical Islam with Economics. When we translate that to the Palestine-Israel conflict it is in the interest of Israel to get a prosperous community in Palestine (not rich leaders as at the present). Someone who has a good running business is not easaly inclined to attack a Jew and see his property shot to pieces. (On July 23, 2004 a family attempted to physically prevent the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades from setting up a rocket launcher outside their house. Members of the brigade shot and killed one boy wounded 5 others.)

Of every 100 Palestinian workers, 11 work in Israel and the settlements compared to 10 in 2009, a new survey from the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics found.

Average daily wages for settlement workers were 150 shekels ($44) per day, compared to 76.9 ($22) in the West Bank and 46.2 ($13.50) in Gaza, the latest research showed.

The figures for settlement workers are likely to concern leaders of the Palestinian Authority, who have said they will outlaw all work in Israeli factories across the Green Line by 2012.

The three paragraphs above are excerpts from PCBS: More workers in Israel in 2010 and Settlement workers paid double average wage.

Why would the PO prevent his own people to earn twice as much? Are they affraid that their "nothing to lose" startegy will fail so that it is harder to pursue them to attack Israel?
December 17th, 2011  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
No, your statement was not confrontational, it was illogical to the point of being just plain stupid. The whole debate is about ownership and you start by make a sweeping statement that ownership can no longer be considered.
His comment is not illogical nor stupid but your idea that the debate is about ownership, is. Ownership is subordinate to rule of law. If the government needs your property they buy it form you (democracies - you must sell) or just take it (dictatorial regimes). Anyway, bye bye ownership.

Quote:
If you want my personal opinion as to what should happen to the Israelis, I'd say, "you moved here, so you can move out if you don't want to live under the new ruling".
70% of the Jews ar sabras, 1,5 million are Arabs. Those are all people born in Israel. They didn't move. Expelling people is illegal. The ones who moved here, moved legally. Whether you like it or not, they all are going to stay.

A two state solution is the only legal solution.
 


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