Originally Posted by Yossarian

I know we disagree, but I am always seeking different opionions for as nothing can create a more arrogant mind than always surrounding yourself with those who only share in thought, and never present new ones.

On this point I hasten to remind you that I have already posted the fact that as little as 20 years ago I was pro Israel. It was only the fact that there were serious cracks appearing in the News coming out of Israel that made my decide to look deeper into the matter, as a result of which it became apparent that Israel had been pulling the wool over the eyes of the world for years, the more I looked the more that was uncovered, at first I was somewhat skeptical,... no one likes to think that they have been made a fool of, especially seeing it had been going on since before I was born. Never the less, since that time the news has just got worse and worse with more and more deceptions and outright lies being uncovered.

Just to familiarise yourself a little more as to why things are the way they are insofar as the US relationship with Israel, I have posted two video clips of an interview with Mark Bruzonsky author of the "Paris declaration", a well known Jewish American scholar and business leader. Here you can hear it "from the horses mouth" some of the details as to why the US is virtually powerless to do the things it knows that legally and morally it should.

It's hardly riveting stuff, nor could it be considered extremist in any way, just a simple humdrum explanation of how Israel has US political parties by the balls. It's often somewhat boring, but do yourself the favour of watching it through and it may just open your eyes to this "growing cancer"* in US politics

*Their words not mine.

Mark Bruzonsky

Mark Bruzonsky

Originally Posted by senojekips

So you keep saying,... but then again who could believe an adult human being that supports murdering, thieving lying and whining, regime like Israel?

Nothing I have omitted changes the intent of what was said, in the case I think you are quoting, both quotes were by the same man and only a short time apart and clearly showed his morality to be no better than that of a feral animal. You also tried the stupid excuse that another quote was allegedly "not in the author's diary" and when even you realised exactly how stupid it was, you started to look for other excuses. Not being able to deny what was said, you then have a beef with when it was said, which of course is of absolutely no consequence. It was said, and it was said by the person in question. It would be like Rudolf Hoess stating that he did not oversee the deaths of 3 million Jews, as he only over saw 6000 one day and 8000 the next,... and so on.

When these things were said, matters not one iota,... it was said. So don't go on about nit picking as would appear that you are a past master at it. I know you are trying to excuse the Zionists by nibbling around the edges of the problem, totally ignoring the total outcome,... It doesn't work, not with me, nor the rest of the civilised world.

Again,... you read what you think is written instead of what is actually written, (not only with me, but it seems most things) when I speak of Zionists I mean just that,... Zionists, and when I speak of Jews or Israelis I mean Jews or Israelis as the case may be. I deliberately chose my words carefully as idiots like yourself will always grasp at any straw to misquote or misunderstand. It seems to be a Zionist trait of some renown.

You keep saying that you've proved things whereas in actual fact all you have done is excuse them, and if that doesn't work you reword the same question and re-present it. Sorry but no matter what you say, you can't deny the physical evidence. Israel is a rogue state in the keeping of all but the very worst excesses of Nazism. This is admitted by many open minded Jews yet you fail to see the irony in it. That singular fact tells me a lot about your mentality and lack of any moral compass.

A lot of words for saying nothing. If I was wrong show me. Show what I said and what was wrong with it with verifiable links.
I did that with your distortions. I proved what was left out or what words were changed in order to give it a twisted view.
I challenge you to show me which facts I gave were wrong.
I am not a pro-zionist. I hate extremists and I can't stand people who twist the facts and the truth.

Originally Posted by VDKMS

A lot of words for saying nothing. If I was wrong show me. Show what I said and what was wrong with it with verifiable links.
I did that with your distortions. I proved what was left out or what words were changed in order to give it a twisted view.
I challenge you to show me which facts I gave were wrong.
I am not a pro-zionist. I hate extremists and I can't stand people who twist the facts and the truth.

I have showed you all along with such examples as Israel being the country with the greatest number of UN resolutions raised against them for their totally unacceptable behaviour in the eyes of the world, resolutions, that for the most part have been totally ignored by Israel. All you have been able to do, is deny it by nibbling around the edges of the facts, nit picking here and there.

Similarly, I can do the same with the truth, showing that Adolph Hitler loved his mother and treated her very well, and no doubt was loved in return, but that in no way mitigates the fact that he was a neurotic and probably psychotic mass murderer who was primarily responsible for the premature deaths of many tens of millions of people. Such is the case against Israel, and we find that a number of Jewish persons including Holocaust survivors, eminent scholars and writers have made similar observations.

Nowhere, have you shown Israel to be a responsible member of the world community, and in keeping with the topic of this thread, nowhere have you given any reason why the world's dislike and distrust of Israel and their thieving murderous policies is not totally justified (if not understated).

Originally Posted by VDKMS

I hate extremists and I can't stand people who twist the facts and the truth.

Your previous arguments clearly make an absolute mockery of this, it seems that you are resorting to that old Zionist standby,... when all else fails, "Lie through your teeth". The truth being that you are not even good enough at that, to fool all but the most gullible among us.

Originally Posted by senojekips

Just to familiarise yourself a little more as to why things are the way they are insofar as the US relationship with Israel, I have posted two video clips of an interview with Mark Bruzonsky author of the "Paris declaration", a well known Jewish American scholar and business leader. Here you can hear it "from the horses mouth" some of the details as to why the US is virtually powerless to do the things it knows that legally and morally it should.

It's hardly riveting stuff, nor could it be considered extremist in any way, just a simple humdrum explanation of how Israel has US political parties by the balls. It's often somewhat boring, but do yourself the favour of watching it through and it may just open your eyes to this "growing cancer"* in US politics

*Their words not mine.

It is funny but his point of view is very common amongst West Coast American Jews, I remember when I met a friend of mine I was tip toeing around the Israel/Jewish thing as the people introducing us knew I wasn't pro-Israel and half way through lunch something came up and to cut a long story short it turns out I was more pro-Israel than he was and his views were echoed by a large number Jews I met throughout the West Coast but the East Coast ones seem to be the stereotypical ones you see on TV.

On the whole I agree with this guy though the only way peace will be attained in the region is to remove the USA from the equation or at least the right of veto.

Originally Posted by senojekips

We all know why the Palestinians have never accepted previous offers. The Israelis have deliberately made the conditions so onerous for the Palestinians that they knew it would never be accepted. It would be as if I occupied your house and siezed all of your posessions, and offered to let you live in the dog kennel if you signed all of your remaining possessions over to me legally. They knew it would never be accepted before they ever went to the bargaining table, and this was done deliberately to enable the continued illegal siezure of any habitable remaining parts of Palestine.

They rejected the UN partition plan and that came not from the Jews, who btw didn't get what they asked for but accepted it. If you would read articles from both sides you should know that both sides accuse the other for derailing the peace process. The Palestinians don't want to start the peace process again because of the expansion of the settlements. Have you ever thought about the fact that the Israelis might not want to start that peace process because of the rocket attacks on their civilian population?

Never, ever, count your chickens before they hatch, as unlikely as it may be, have you ever considered that the rest of the world might wake up one day, and they may eventually have no option?

Again this proves that you do not read articles of the other side. I showed you that even the oposition labor party of your country supports Israel. In case you want to read it again here is the link.

That is no more than pure zionist propaganda, International law has already indicated that the owners are the Palestinians. Even in the days of the British Mandate this was known and admitted.

Quote me that international law with a verifiable link.
Who admitted that during the British Mandate?

That may be what they would like you to believe, but as unlikely as it is to ever happen, the Israelis have demonstrated that if it came down to sacrificing everything, they really don't have the stomach for it, whereas you could walk down any street in most Palestinian towns and find people quite willing to sacrifice themselves and anyone else that gets in the way, just to be rid of these pests. In short the Palestinians have shown that they do have the courage of their convictions whereas the Israelis want it just handed to them on a plate.

And by doing so they lost 2 generations of fine people. I call that stupidity and a waste of talent. They should learn their people economics and not terrorism. Learn how to do business and not how to make bombs. Ever followed management courses? If you want to solve a problem, start with yourself.

That's easy,... you were talking about the police and what they do. Tell me this, what would the Police (Courts) do in the case that I stole all of your possessions because my ancestors told me that God promised them to me 2000 years ago?

What would they say if someone says "strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine" or "Palestine is sacred for all Muslims for all time, and it cannot be relinquished by anyone"(Hamas charter)

Don't ever make the mistake of presuming that my determination is in any way connected with making hasty judgments. In nearly every case here the judgments have been made by others who are a lot better informed than myself, people like, the International Courts of Justice, United Nations, Red Cross, Amnesty International, Medecins Sans Frontieres and any of a dozen others, I am just pointing out what they have said, and the fact that I agree with them wholeheartedly.

Do you?
Do you wholeheartedly agree with this: Suicide attack against civilians are crime against humanity : "Amnesty International condemns in the strongest terms today's suicide attacks on two buses in Be'er Sheva, in the south of Israel, which killed at least 15 people and wounded some 90 others. The Palestinian armed group Hamas reportedly claimed responsibility for carrying out the attacks."

Red Cross official: There is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza , that's a IDF link so you would not believe it but here's another one

UN : In September 2011, a UN investigative committee concluded in the Palmer Report that the blockade is legal.

but maybe you wholeheartedly agree with them for this:

Why is Amnesty hosting a Hamas-friendly publisher of racists?

or this

Int'l Red Cross Sheltering Hamas Terrorist Officials

or this

Before being appointed as judge at the International Court of Justice, Nabil Elaraby urged Arab states to sue Israel for committing atrocities, a judge must be impartial isn't it?

Originally Posted by MontyB

It is funny but his point of view is very common amongst West Coast American Jews, I remember when I met a friend of mine I was tip toeing around the Israel/Jewish thing as the people introducing us knew I wasn't pro-Israel and half way through lunch something came up and to cut a long story short it turns out I was more pro-Israel than he was and his views were echoed by a large number Jews I met throughout the West Coast but the East Coast ones seem to be the stereotypical ones you see on TV.

On the whole I agree with this guy though the only way peace will be attained in the region is to remove the USA from the equation or at least the right of veto.

I found similar views here in Australia when sharing the Passover with relatives several years ago, only one of whom I had met before.

I was very mindful of my manners being careful to avoid saying anything that might be considered as contentious. During the several days I spent with various families, after the formalities were over, we sat together and talked of our connections and family traits. (My nose)* It wasn't very long before I found that with most of them, their views on Zionism are somewhat ambivalent, and the antics of my distant relative who was once quoted as being, one of Australia's foremost Zionists, was regarded with some quiet hilarity by the family in general.

*I must admit that I found it somewhat reassuring to be gently ribbed about my "regal" nose by my newly met rellies.

Originally Posted by VDKMS

They rejected the UN partition plan and that came not from the Jews, who btw didn't get what they asked for but accepted it. If you would read articles from both---snip---itting atrocities, a judge must be impartial isn't it?

None of the above shows any reason why Israel is not a pariah state despised by the world. As for any alleged crimes by Hamas, Arabs, Muslims or Palestinians in general, just remember, if the Jews had not taken Palestine from it admitted owners in the first place, and then continued with their criminal acts for over 60 years,... they would never have bought this on their own heads.

"If you insist on first putting your head in the fire, and then trying to extinguish it with petrol, don't complain that you get burnt".

In short I'm not interested in you excuses.

From what I see now is, we are so far past the point of who rightfully owns the land, that we have no choice but to try to find every avenue for peace between these two groups of people.

I DON"T LIKE IT, so please, this is not really my opion on that first bit.

But, even if you legitimize the claims, what does that solve? If either side settles the claim and gives it to the other, a massive humanitarian crisis will be created that could pass the state of the current one with Palestienians.

I will say this as well.

ALL Palestinians should be given the rights and respect of citizenship, either to their own state, or that of Israel by THEIR INDIVIDUAL CHOICE.

I hate this situation guys I do, but I will not cease to hope for and support any idea of findng a way to give equality and a better quality of life for Palestinians, as well as free travel to all Relgious areas throughout the occupied territories and Israel for all Muslims, Jews, and Christians.

Guys, if anyone could kindly explain, kindly please, IF one side backed down and gave claim to the entire region, what of the other peoples?

Will they be evicted or eradicated?

These are two cultures with strong ancient cultural history in this region.

Looking at the really screwed up situation now,

What can today's world do to assist in ensuring all the peoples in this region are given equal rights, free travel, and a franchised acknowledgment of their rights in the region of Palestiene/ Israel?

I would hate to see either side suffer any further injustices or crimes.

And will not abandon any hope that a lasting and just peace and equality can one day exisist for all peoples in this region...

Regardless of who owns the land.

Originally Posted by Yossarian

From what I see now is, we are so far past the point of who rightfully owns the land, ---snip---

Sorry, but I find this point so patently ridiculous that I won't even bother to read further.

In a case of illegal occupation such as we are discussing, if you toss "ownership" out the window. There is no debate,... end of story.

I really think you need to go away and have a good think about what you are saying.

Originally Posted by senojekips

Sorry, but I find this point so patently ridiculous that I won't even bother to read further.

In a case of illegal occupation such as we are discussing, if you toss "ownership" out the window. There is no debate,... end of story.

I really think you need to go away and have a good think about what you are saying.

So we should evict or eradicate 6 million Israelies?

Originally Posted by Yossarian

So we should evict or eradicate 6 million Israelies?

What has that to do with my last answer?

If you find a person driving your car, and he claims it is his. You go to court and the judge walks in and the first thing he says is "ownership is not going to influence my decision" one way or the other.

What is the sense of being there?.... and that is essentially what you said. You are approaching the debate with the same attitude as the Israelis have approached all their "negotiations" with the Palestinians. Make a stupid claim that effectively kills any talks before they begin.