So why do people hate Israel? - Page 17




 
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December 15th, 2011  
Yossarian
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayManKiller3
All you do is attack one side and you excuse the other side completely (saying terrorism is allowed in self-defense, which is bull). I am glad I do not agree with you; attacking civillians is cowardly, no matter how much your desperate to win.
I agree fully with you there, murdering of civilians from either concerned party is unexcusable, no matter how demonic Israel may appear to some, it is also degrading for any arguement to just soley point out convientently any misjustices or crimes against humanity of only one side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayManKiller3
Do you know how many terrorist acts was done in "self-defense" (according to these terrorists), 9/11 (he seen this as defense for Islam and Arab lands) and the London bombing to name a few... Do you agree that, that was done in self-defense? Going to another country and purposely killing civillians. The Israeli's saw their acts as "self-defense" against the Arab attacks on them, yet you somehow disagree.... I do not agree ownership of land determines who is defending themselves and who isn't.
Although many will say I must have been dropped on my head when I say this, but in terms of the Arab attacks on Israel, it makes perfect sense why they defended themselves, their defense of the land they reside on did not concern if it was legal or just or not, under those war time conditions the Israelis where fighting for their very survival during the numerous military actions the neighboring Arab countries sought against them. For you can't erradicate the lands of concern, but you can it's people.

At those points in time it was fundmentally self defense, although I don't agree with the large amounts of land grabbing once the State of Israel was no longer in immediate danger of invasion, during the opening stages of both the 6 day War and the October War of 1973, Israel like any other nation on this Earth excerised the methods of it's defense as is expected by a country under threat of invasion. HOWEVER,

The massive land grabs and occupation of what little Remaining Palestian settlements that were not occupied directly after the threat had resided in 1967 for example, was a ill founded and not logically based idea, as in it merely postponed that conflict it seemed until the start of the Yom Kippur War.

Which ties me back to my orginal view point here, I simply refuse to overly or blindly judge or praise either party without a complete analysis of what both parties are wanting, and what BOTH parties have done in the realm of misjustices and criminal acts towards each other and the region in whole.


(please don't explain that I don't judge matters to me, I know that being I am human just like everybody else.)
December 15th, 2011  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayManKiller3
You are quite correct on everything you said just now (not sure about the illegal part). However, I don't believe in just blaming one party, Arabs definately had a part in the reason Israel was able to be created and expand.
If that is the case, it looks like we'd better start blaming the Jews for the holocaust. and as i said no one cares what you "think", Palestinian rule of their own land is a legal and moral imperative, and we will not see peace until it is resolved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayManKiller3
I do not agree ownership of land determines who is defending themselves and who isn't.
This statement is so illogical and downright stupid, that I won't even bother with an answer. All I will say is that, all legal and moral judgments here are based on ownership. No ownership, no legal claim, nor support, it's as simple as that. Obviously you are both short on logic and totally bereft of any form of morality, which is really no surprise given your support of Israel, a country that has repeatedly been shown to have lied about its intent, and it's crimes committed in support of that intent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayManKiller3
The fact many is hostile to Israel is what drives them support.
If this means what i think you mean, it is no better than your statement above. Who exactly is it supposed driving to support the Israelis, certainly not those who are hostile towards them. In fact it is showing the world the truth about Israel, which is why we are seeing an increase in Jewish anti Zionism around the world from both religious leaders and Jewish academics.
December 16th, 2011  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Did it ever occur to you that the Law quoted was an International law and only concerns countries of occupation. I realise that you make every effort to not understand the facts, your pathetic and childlike attempts at excusing the Zionists are due to stoop to a new level it seems? If that's the best you can do I think it's time I stopped bothering with you, your "logic" is not worthy of an answer.
Is it? Take your link http://www.israellawresourcecenter.o...ide/SGTII1.htm , it says on top of the page : "one set of laws that legalize discrimination against non-Jews within Israel, and oppression and exploitation of Palestinian Arabs living in the adjacent occupied Paletinian territories ..." then go to the third colom (Details Requested) A. It says : Passed Land Laws which expropriate for a variety of reasons land from Palestinians to become state lands, calling them 'Israel Lands'.(more details & quotes). When you click on that link and on top of that page it says : laws that legalize discrimination against non-Jews in Israel..., suddenly it isn't about occupied Palestinian territories anymore.
That site first try to put you on the wrong foot, it does however give the full texts IF you dig deep enough. Most people don't read those laws (you didn't), only the titles. When you read the text of the laws themselves you'll see that that site is nit-picking.

Quote:
Ah,... so we're back to the circular argument again eh? Read my answer, and also my last answer to this same repeated question, my answer wasn't about "law" it was about your statement (As I said last time). Also, I have never mentioned land sold prior to and during the British mandate, so I've got no idea what you are on about. This has been quite deliberate, as my Gt Grandfather was one of those purchasers,... in 1852. He lived peacefully among his Palestinian neighbours and it was not until the arrival of the Zionist troublemakers that many of our family migrated back to England or Australia. They suffered no terrorism, not even a harsh word, I wonder what turned these peaceful people into your so called "terrorists".
Here's my statement yo're talking about:

Originally Posted by VDKMS
It had nothing to do with the backing of the British nor with the Arabs living there for over 1200 years. It all has to do with rule of law. No matter how long or short you lived there if you want to buy or sell a home the rule of law is the most important thing. So according to your logic, an Arab who's family owns a property for 1200 years cannot sell it to a Jew? Thtat's BS. Both during the Ottoman empire and the British mandate anyone could sell or buy a property to or from anyone.
Those peaceful people started to defend themselves when the Arabs (Muslims) started to attack them while praying.(1920 and 1929 Palestine riots)

Quote:
Circular argument,... again, coupled with another childish attempt at distortion of the facts. The truth being nearer, "Israel must leave because it occupies Palestinian ground". The term Palestinian includes Muslims, Christians, Druze and even some Jews.
Wake up! There never was Palestinian ground. There was a region called Palestine or Canaan, Zion, the Land of Israel, Syria Palaestina, Southern Syria, Jund Filastin, Outremer, the Holy Land and the Southern Levant. You choose. That region was ruled by the Ottoman Empire and after that by the British with a UN mandate.

Quote:
I have no idea what you are talking about here, the convention does not specifically mention Presbyterians either but that in no way says that they are not covered under it's intent. Virtually all of this has already been disproven,... except in the eyes of Israeli law (most of which is illegal in itself). Consult Israellawresource. (Yes I know, it uses the word "Palestinian", and is therefore not genuine to you) However on this occasion I'll settle for the fact that the rest of the world is quite happy with it.
Of course you don't know nothing about! Nowhere in the world are descendants of refugees also labeled refugees, only the Palestinian ones. The Jews who were expelled from all Arab countries were not even labeled refugees. Their finances and properties confiscated without a custodian who cares about the abandoned property like the Israelis did.

Quote:
Today's tidbit and answer the original poster's question.

“Zionist land policy was incorporated in the Constitution of the Jewish Agency for Palestine...’land is to be acquired as Jewish property and..the title to the lands acquired is to be taken in the name of the Jewish National Fund, to the end that the same shall be held as the inalienable property of the Jewish people.’ The provision goes to stipulate that ‘the Agency shall promote agricultural colonization based on Jewish labor’...The effect of this Zionist colonization policy on the Arabs was that land acquired by Jews became extra-territorialized. It ceased to be land from which the Arabs could ever hope to gain any advantage...
A quote from a anti web page which if fully outdated. Most land is now in the hands of the government and no one (Jew nor Arab nor Palestinian) can buy land from it. Only leasing is possible. The Jewish national Fund has about 13% of all the land in Israel. Since its inception, the JNF has planted over 240 million trees in Israel. It has also built 180 dams and reservoirs, developed 250,000 acres (1,000 km2) of land and established more than 1,000 parks.
Wow, a very anti-palestinian organisation, isn't it?

Quote:
“The Zionists made no secret of their intentions, for as early as 1921, Dr. Eder, a member of the Zionist Commission, boldly told the Court of Inquiry, ‘there can be only one National Home in Palestine, and that a Jewish one, and no equality in the partnership between Jews and Arabs, but a Jewish preponderance as soon as the numbers of the race are sufficiently increased.’ He then asked that only Jews should be allowed to bear arms.” Sami Hadawi, “Bitter Harvest.”
That court of inquiry (Haycraft Commission of Inquiry) investigated the Jaffa riots of 1921 and blamed the Arabs for the violence. Dr. Eder didn't got what he wanted and only served from 1921 to 1927. And he didn't represent the Jews in that inquiry either, it was Dr Mordechai Eliash.
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December 16th, 2011  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
I think the point has certainly been made very clearly here.

Israel was formed under an illegal, immoral, racist and colonialist precept, and allowed at that time by a world that was sick of war with the British government realising that their people would not allow the further loss of life among their forces needed to resist the Zionist terror that was being conducted against them in Palestine. The continued illegal behaviour of Israel's Zionist leaders was only ignored because of the fear of being falsely labeled Anti Semitic at a time when the Jewish people were only just starting to recover from the holocaust.

Thankfully due to cheap and easily available technology the world is now seeing the truth and the realisation of what has been going on for over 60 years is making many people who once supported Israel aware of their "third world banana republic antics" and continued expansionist aims. Their constant blatant lies, denials and refusals only hastening the world's awakening to their true intent. An intent that was publicly made quite clear as early 1921, and is now returning to bite them on the bum as they now try to deny it all.

So much for the nibbling at the edges of this argument by the pro Zionist supporters with their continued attempted circular arguments in a vain attempt to excuse the Zionists for their totally unacceptable behaviour. The overwhelming truth is clearly evident to anyone who has an open mind and the desire to see and accept the truth.
The Arab Palestinians were the first to attack the British, I proved that with a clear date.
You are full of hatred against Israel (you call them Zionists and everything in this writing proves that you all lumped them together). You distort facts by twisting words, leaving words out of quotes, deleting whole sentences so that the reader gets a wrong picture and giving links to sites who do the same.
You overpraise the UN resolutions that condemn Israel and despise the ones that are in favor of them.
December 16th, 2011  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
The Arab Palestinians were the first to attack the British, I proved that with a clear date.
You are full of hatred against Israel (you call them Zionists and everything in this writing proves that you all lumped them together). You distort facts by twisting words, leaving words out of quotes, deleting whole sentences so that the reader gets a wrong picture and giving links to sites who do the same.
You overpraise the UN resolutions that condemn Israel and despise the ones that are in favor of them.
So you keep saying,... but then again who could believe an adult human being that supports murdering, thieving lying and whining, regime like Israel?

Nothing I have omitted changes the intent of what was said, in the case I think you are quoting, both quotes were by the same man and only a short time apart and clearly showed his morality to be no better than that of a feral animal. You also tried the stupid excuse that another quote was allegedly "not in the author's diary" and when even you realised exactly how stupid it was, you started to look for other excuses. Not being able to deny what was said, you then have a beef with when it was said, which of course is of absolutely no consequence. It was said, and it was said by the person in question. It would be like Rudolf Hoess stating that he did not oversee the deaths of 3 million Jews, as he only over saw 6000 one day and 8000 the next,... and so on.

When these things were said, matters not one iota,... it was said. So don't go on about nit picking as would appear that you are a past master at it. I know you are trying to excuse the Zionists by nibbling around the edges of the problem, totally ignoring the total outcome,... It doesn't work, not with me, nor the rest of the civilised world.

Again,... you read what you think is written instead of what is actually written, (not only with me, but it seems most things) when I speak of Zionists I mean just that,... Zionists, and when I speak of Jews or Israelis I mean Jews or Israelis as the case may be. I deliberately chose my words carefully as idiots like yourself will always grasp at any straw to misquote or misunderstand. It seems to be a Zionist trait of some renown.

You keep saying that you've proved things whereas in actual fact all you have done is excuse them, and if that doesn't work you reword the same question and re-present it. Sorry but no matter what you say, you can't deny the physical evidence. Israel is a rogue state in the keeping of all but the very worst excesses of Nazism. This is admitted by many open minded Jews yet you fail to see the irony in it. That singular fact tells me a lot about your mentality and lack of any moral compass.
December 16th, 2011  
Yossarian
 
 
Passionate subjects make for selective hearing. It is a factor that's to be expected in these types of exhcanges.
December 16th, 2011  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yossarian
Passionate subjects make for selective hearing. It is a factor that's to be expected in these types of exhcanges.
I should ignore this blatant sh!t stirring, but then again you know me better than that.

It's not helped by those who effectively have nothing to say sitting on the fence just sticking an oar in to stir things along.

There are few trouble makers worse than those who state that they have nothing to say either way on a subject, but then they insist on telling everyone their views at every opportunity. Remember,... debates are never won by the adjudicator.
December 16th, 2011  
Yossarian
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
I should ignore this blatant sh!t stirring, but then again you know me better than that.

It's not helped by those who effectively have nothing to say sitting on the fence just sticking an oar in to stir things along.

There are few trouble makers worse than those who state that they have nothing to say either way on a subject, but they insist on telling everyone about it at every opportunity.

I think you misunderstood me, I was not trying to be confrontational, just it seems to be a reacurring pattern in such developtments, I am 100% guilty of this myself.

Furthermore I am not trying to "stir the oar" as you place it, but literally I have once again began to scrutinize this situation, and partly by your stern responses will interate the conclusions from reading your dialouge and doing a bit of research of my own on the Palestine Israel Issue of land occupation...

I truely feel at this point in time, many many generations later it is not practical nor really solving any problems, but in fact only create many new crisis by simply merging, or evicting the Israeli population to allow a true Palestienian state... However I do feel that the Palestienian councal should have accepted the UN agreement and reaped the benifits of StateHood long ago.

I also feel that on Israel's behalf they should cease all building and start work immediately on finding more open, peaceful and accepting ways to coexsist to with the Arabs, then from that point, which right now we are nowhere near, and practically speaking may not be for many many more years... Work should be undergone to try and find a way for the entire region to be reworked to allow the living space and quality of life as well as social equality for all the inhabitants, whether it be Arab or Israeli, in that region and negate the need for the region to be so militarized, and to remove the source of "legitimatcy" for all militant factions who have hijacked this long running confrontation to commit unspeakable acts...

For here is a short list of whether you, I or anybody else likes it or not, will not happen.


Israel Will not vacate the premsis.

The land will never been seen to be returned to any "rightful owner" because of all the contradicting and convoluted claims to it.

Israel will either have to be wiped out with overwhelming force, or any attempt to erradicate them would render the lands inhospitable for hundereds of years making such an act contradicting to the "cause" in the first place.


Now about this fence....

I do not sit upon any fence, for when two peoples get into a altercation and police arrive. The first action off is to seperate the persons and asks each one their story seperate from each other...

I am trying to stand back and acknowledge the situation from both perspectives, and from now I see is different from your idea, my premisis is neither state in the immditiate short term can dissapear so the other one can "take over"

The best anyone can do is first find out how to diffuse tensions and open the channels to rearranging things so both peoples can find a way to live together, and once and for all settle this land dispute.

I am not sure about yourself Mr. senojekips but when I am angry or just plain pissed, I don't always think as clearly than when I am calm and collect, it anyone anywhere is to have any hope in finding out how to reach any agreement, and mind you, both sides will have to make great sacrifices, then we have to approach this with a cool head.

Mindly, lack of use of force from either side, and to establish a lasting peace in the region.

One day maybe there will be one solid state in the region that has been called many names by many peoples, one state free of concrete barriers, mine fields, indiscrimnate rocket and mortar attacks...

But if anyone is to have any hope at reaching that day... Then we need to focus on the more practical and logical small step approaches first and both sides must work together, at the same time and as mentioned sacrifices must be made.


For like many problems in life, it's often than not a reality that you will not get anything you want or anywhere you want without giving up something first.

That last statement, is the "fence" that I sit on.

And lastly, I wouldn't have been vigorous in becoming more than the average non concerned or ill informed American if it where not for your stern comments,

So in that regard, I owe you my thanks.
December 16th, 2011  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yossarian
I think you misunderstood me, I was not trying to be confrontational, just it seems to be a reacurring pattern in such developtments, I am 100% guilty of this myself.

Furthermore I am not trying to "stir the oar" as you place it, but literally I have once again began to scrutinize this situation, and partly by your stern responses will interate the conclusions from reading your dialouge and doing a bit of research of my own on the Palestine Israel Issue of land occupation...
You have my most humble and sincere apologies. All I can say in mitigation of my actions is, that being aware of exactly how passionate this subject is, you should perhaps be a little more cautious. It's a bit like trying to separate two fighting pigs, it's very easy to suffer severe consequences as a result of your actions, no matter how well intentioned they may be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yossarian
I truely feel at this point in time, many many generations later it is not practical nor really solving any problems, but in fact only create many new crisis by simply merging, or evicting the Israeli population to allow a true Palestienian state... However I do feel that the Palestienian councal should have accepted the UN agreement and reaped the benifits of StateHood long ago.
Had you read all of my posts, you would realise that regardless of what others may imply, that has never been my intention. But there is absolutely no reason why a South African solution could not be investigated. It may not be perfect, but it has bought relative peace to the area.

We all know why the Palestinians have never accepted previous offers. The Israelis have deliberately made the conditions so onerous for the Palestinians that they knew it would never be accepted. It would be as if I occupied your house and siezed all of your posessions, and offered to let you live in the dog kennel if you signed all of your remaining possessions over to me legally. They knew it would never be accepted before they ever went to the bargaining table, and this was done deliberately to enable the continued illegal siezure of any habitable remaining parts of Palestine.

It appears to me that you seem to think that this is some sort of unfortunate "accident", an "accident" that has been going on for half a century and slowly getting worse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yossarian
For here is a short list of whether you, I or anybody else likes it or not, will not happen.

Israel Will not vacate the premsis.
Never, ever, count your chickens before they hatch, as unlikely as it may be, have you ever considered that the rest of the world might wake up one day, and they may eventually have no option?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yossarian
The land will never been seen to be returned to any "rightful owner" because of all the contradicting and convoluted claims to it.
That is no more than pure zionist propaganda, International law has already indicated that the owners are the Palestinians. Even in the days of the British Mandate this was known and admitted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yossarian
Israel will either have to be wiped out with overwhelming force, or any attempt to erradicate them would render the lands inhospitable for hundereds of years making such an act contradicting to the "cause" in the first place.
That may be what they would like you to believe, but as unlikely as it is to ever happen, the Israelis have demonstrated that if it came down to sacrificing everything, they really don't have the stomach for it, whereas you could walk down any street in most Palestinian towns and find people quite willing to sacrifice themselves and anyone else that gets in the way, just to be rid of these pests. In short the Palestinians have shown that they do have the courage of their convictions whereas the Israelis want it just handed to them on a plate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yossarian
The best anyone can do is first find out how to diffuse tensions and open the channels to rearranging things so both peoples can find a way to live together, and once and for all settle this land dispute.
That's easy,... you were talking about the police and what they do. Tell me this, what would the Police (Courts) do in the case that I stole all of your possessions because my ancestors told me that God promised them to me 2000 years ago?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yossarian
I am not sure about yourself Mr. senojekips but when I am angry or just plain pissed, I don't always think as clearly than when I am calm and collect, it anyone anywhere is to have any hope in finding out how to reach any agreement, and mind you, both sides will have to make great sacrifices, then we have to approach this with a cool head.
Don't ever make the mistake of presuming that my determination is in any way connected with making hasty judgments. In nearly every case here the judgments have been made by others who are a lot better informed than myself, people like, the International Courts of Justice, United Nations, Red Cross, Amnesty International, Medecins Sans Frontieres and any of a dozen others, I am just pointing out what they have said, and the fact that I agree with them wholeheartedly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yossarian
One day maybe there will be one solid state in the region that has been called many names by many peoples, one state free of concrete barriers, mine fields, indiscrimnate rocket and mortar attacks...

But if anyone is to have any hope at reaching that day... Then we need to focus on the more practical and logical small step approaches first and both sides must work together, at the same time and as mentioned sacrifices must be made.
If what you say is to eventuate, we will first have to have justice for the owners of the land, and that is just not happening at the moment and there are countries involved who see it as disadvantageous to have peace in the region. Don't worry so much about indescriminate rocket attacks and start looking a little more carefully at the deliberate use of guided weapons and phosphorus shells (Which they denied at first) on innocent civilians. Otherwise, else arm the Palestinians with guided weapons, so their attacks will no longer be indiscriminate. just take the time to compare the number of Israelis killed by these weapons against the number of Palestinian women and children killed by indiscriminate use of Israeli weapons. You'll soon see who is being "indiscriminate". This is admitted by members of the IDF.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Yossarian
For like many problems in life, it's often than not a reality that you will not get anything you want or anywhere you want without giving up something first.

That last statement, is the "fence" that I sit on.

And lastly, I wouldn't have been vigorous in becoming more than the average non concerned or ill informed American if it where not for your stern comments,

So in that regard, I owe you my thanks.
I may seem "grumpy", but I fail to see any other method of getting people to look at the "evidence" in front of their eyes, instead of just blindly believing everything that they are told. Also I see Israel's treatment of the owners of this land as distinctly similar to what was going on in Germany from 1933 - 1940, no one said much then, and the Jewish people have largely never forgiven it,... and I think quite rightly so. So,... I'm saying my bit this time, so that no one can blame me for the same lack of caring further down the track if this should come to a very sticky end. For a people who suffered so much, it never ceases to amaze me, how little the Jews learnt from their past experience.

e.g. Israel would have us believe that their Arab population have full rights as citizens, whereas it takes no real effort to see that this is no more than an outright and very deliberate lie. Don't get me started I could go on for pages it's only the fact that I'm only a "hunt and peck" typist that prevents me.

Because I feel that I owe you some sort of explanation, i am making an exception in this case. It is for this same reason that I ignore much of another persons posts, I refuse to answer the same question more than three or four times, my lack of answer is not an admission that they are correct, just that I see them as not worth the effort, having already explained the facts as seen by the groups i mentioned,... usually several times.
December 16th, 2011  
Yossarian
 
 
I apologize once more for any grieviences I may have presented in my dialouge, as for my new found insight on this issue I guess strangley enough you could see me as the hopeless optimists wishing the best for both parites, willing to investigate every single option in a maybe one day vain attempt to see a fufilled and lasting peace to the region and where both parties can live together as equals.

Seeing one group of people eradicated never really sits well on my mind, knowing my country's history, the result's are all to clear. But if my ancestor's where evicted hundereds of years ago, then I may have not ever been.


It's a tender and very difficult thing to point out, but for me the utter relocation or erasing of either party shouldn't be considered an option at this point.

I know we disagree, but I am always seeking different opionions for as nothing can create a more arrogant mind than always surrounding yourself with those who only share in thought, and never present new ones.
 


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