So why do people hate Israel? - Page 147




 
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August 12th, 2013  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
NEVER ?

From your beloved The Guardian:

Moments later, Mohammed is dead and his father severely wounded

Or what about this (from The Independent) : "...Abu Rahma, the freelance cameraman who shot the scene, of lying when he told an investigation a month after the incident that, “I can confirm that the child was intentionally and in cold blood shot dead and his father injured by the Israeli army.” ..."

Look very good at the picture. The father is severely wounded yet no bulletholes nor any blood is to be seen. It is FAKE
Ah good to see the training courses are paying off with new arguments.

So your contention is that everyone that is shot bleeds profusely?

Because it seems medical opinion does not always agree with you...
Why Gunshot wounds may not bleed profusely.
Remember gunshot wounds are serious. Just because they may not bleed profusely it doesn't mean you are out of the woods yet.
- Entry and exit wounds are often small.
- Bullets rarely transect or sever major arteries and blood vessels
- Surrounding tissue acts as a barrier to blood loss
- As blood pressure falls, bleeding slows.

Now I am sure we could all jump on the internet and find literally thousands of photo's of people killed by gun fire that are not lying in big pools of blood so I don't think we need go that far, how about we accept the comment as fact and stop trying to obfuscate the discussion with Hollywood science.

Incidentally what is that on the boys hand, it appears stained (not skin colour) between the palm of his hand/base of his thumb and the cuff of his shirt, the colour also extends along the chin line it may just be a shadow and it may not be.
I would also draw attention to the kids somewhat unnatural foot position would lead me to think something is up as that would not be a comfortable position to be in for any length of time and kids are notoriously hard to control when they are not comfortable.


August 13th, 2013  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Ah good to see the training courses are paying off with new arguments.

So your contention is that everyone that is shot bleeds profusely?

Because it seems medical opinion does not always agree with you...
Why Gunshot wounds may not bleed profusely.
Remember gunshot wounds are serious. Just because they may not bleed profusely it doesn't mean you are out of the woods yet.
- Entry and exit wounds are often small.
- Bullets rarely transect or sever major arteries and blood vessels
- Surrounding tissue acts as a barrier to blood loss
- As blood pressure falls, bleeding slows.

Now I am sure we could all jump on the internet and find literally thousands of photo's of people killed by gun fire that are not lying in big pools of blood so I don't think we need go that far, how about we accept the comment as fact and stop trying to obfuscate the discussion with Hollywood science.

Incidentally what is that on the boys hand, it appears stained (not skin colour) between the palm of his hand/base of his thumb and the cuff of his shirt, the colour also extends along the chin line it may just be a shadow and it may not be.
I would also draw attention to the kids somewhat unnatural foot position would lead me to think something is up as that would not be a comfortable position to be in for any length of time and kids are notoriously hard to control when they are not comfortable.


Let's have a look at the wounds. The father, it was claimed, had multiple gunshot wounds.
Dr Ahmed Ghadeel of the Al-Shifa Hospital said Jamal received multiple wounds from high-velocity bullets striking his right elbow, his right thigh, and several locations in the lower part of both legs; his femoral artery was also cut.
If your femoral artery is cut you can lose consciousness in about 30 seconds for the average adult male and death in about 3 minutes if the bleeding is unrestricted and you lie in a pile of blood.

from Ma’an News
Israeli troops shot a protester named Ahmad Salem Deeb in his femoral artery on Wednesday and he died of blood loss in the hospital.

compare his body with that of Jamal Al Durrah.

About the boy.
Dr Mohammed Tawil of the Al-Shifa Hospital said the boy had a serious injury to his abdomen, and that his bowels were lying outside his body.
His bowels lying outside his body? Because of a high speed bullet (5.56mm?)?

This is a lie or it was another boy.

And how do you explain the magic appearance of blood a day after the incident?

And why is there no video or still photos – despite the numerous journalists at the scene – of the boy being carried away in a stretcher, or being loaded onto an ambulance?

I can understand your comment above if it was about one shot, but not multiple ones and certainly not when an artery is hit.
August 13th, 2013  
zhaldev
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by udaka
Fcuk the Israel, you and your people have blood of Palastines on your hands.
and you have blood of Tibetans on your whole body.
I think this thread will be on till the destruction of history.
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August 13th, 2013  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
Let's have a look at the wounds. The father, it was claimed, had multiple gunshot wounds.
Dr Ahmed Ghadeel of the Al-Shifa Hospital said Jamal received multiple wounds from high-velocity bullets striking his right elbow, his right thigh, and several locations in the lower part of both legs; his femoral artery was also cut.
If your femoral artery is cut you can lose consciousness in about 30 seconds for the average adult male and death in about 3 minutes if the bleeding is unrestricted and you lie in a pile of blood.

from Ma’an News
Israeli troops shot a protester named Ahmad Salem Deeb in his femoral artery on Wednesday and he died of blood loss in the hospital.

compare his body with that of Jamal Al Durrah.

About the boy.
Dr Mohammed Tawil of the Al-Shifa Hospital said the boy had a serious injury to his abdomen, and that his bowels were lying outside his body.
His bowels lying outside his body? Because of a high speed bullet (5.56mm?)?

This is a lie or it was another boy.

And how do you explain the magic appearance of blood a day after the incident?

And why is there no video or still photos – despite the numerous journalists at the scene – of the boy being carried away in a stretcher, or being loaded onto an ambulance?

I can understand your comment above if it was about one shot, but not multiple ones and certainly not when an artery is hit.
Your argument is not a valid one as no two shootings are alike therefore discussing the second shooting is pointless other than to show a trend.

I would also point out that your response is self defeating as I suspect most people would have little difficulty in recognising that a nation that would use live rounds on a protestor would have little issue using them on a kid.

But if I am to believe the report you posted I cant see anything there that the picture can not support, it says his femoral artery was cut, define his definition of a cut does it mean cut through or half way or nicked and the kid is laying on his father so the wound location is covered no one can tell from that picture.
Further to that it depends on the cut itself if it is a straight cut then the body can compensated for that if it is a cut along the artery it cant compensate as well so your 30seconds to 3 minutes is only in the case of a severed artery in the right location.

The picture given appears to have been taken from across the road or as the cameraman states about 15 meters and it is taken at a low flat angle so you are not going to see what is on the ground but given that the road/path seems to slope down toward the barrel (based on the angle of the brickwork) I would expect any blood to flow in that direction.

So my conclusion would be that there is not enough proof based on that picture to prove or disprove the case however there are a few things that go beyond the photo:
1) If Israel were the saints you want us to believe they are children and civilians would never be in a position where a photo like that could be believed.
2) There are enough provable offenses by the occupation forces that make it possible to say that the photo may be real.

Therefore I would suggest that in this case Israel is being judged as much by the weight of evidence based on past actions as it is on information available in that picture so whether this happened or not is largely immaterial which is what I mentioned in the first line where I said it could only be used to determine a trend.
August 14th, 2013  
udaka
 
yeah, if you want know the truth, I tell you the Chinese killed 10 millions Indians in 1962s' war. are you satisfy?

And "elite" government of India killed more Indians than foreigners. It prefer use hundreds of billion dollars on military instead of feed their hungry people.

With 230 million Indian people under-nourished, the country awaits some comprehensive policy intervention from the Indian government to tackle this haunting crisis.



Quote:
Originally Posted by zhaldev
and you have blood of Tibetans on your whole body.
I think this thread will be on till the destruction of history.
August 14th, 2013  
zhaldev
 
 
We have to spend billions on defense because we have two very good neighbors who you can trust blindly.
And second thing we accept the facts and are working regarding poverty and upbringing the poor people into middle classes.

I don't get it what you said about Elite Indian govt killed more Indians...This may be your govt run news channel have brainwashed you about.

We accept our mistakes if made unlike you.Who killed innocent people and shamelessly still doing it.
August 14th, 2013  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Your argument is not a valid one as no two shootings are alike therefore discussing the second shooting is pointless other than to show a trend.
Never has someone been shot multiple times without bleeding and certainly not when an artery is hit.

Quote:
I would also point out that your response is self defeating as I suspect most people would have little difficulty in recognising that a nation that would use live rounds on a protestor would have little issue using them on a kid.
You forget one thing, it came from a Palestinian news agency so the "protester" might as well have been an attacker or a rival family member during a feud or just a bystander that was hit when jihadis fired their guns in the air. Ever wondered how many people have been killed that way? What goes up , comes down.

Quote:
But if I am to believe the report you posted I cant see anything there that the picture can not support, it says his femoral artery was cut, define his definition of a cut does it mean cut through or half way or nicked and the kid is laying on his father so the wound location is covered no one can tell from that picture.
Further to that it depends on the cut itself if it is a straight cut then the body can compensated for that if it is a cut along the artery it cant compensate as well so your 30seconds to 3 minutes is only in the case of a severed artery in the right location.
No blood was found after the incident, it magically appeared the next day.

Quote:
The picture given appears to have been taken from across the road or as the cameraman states about 15 meters and it is taken at a low flat angle so you are not going to see what is on the ground but given that the road/path seems to slope down toward the barrel (based on the angle of the brickwork) I would expect any blood to flow in that direction.
Blood is thicker than water, so the slope should have had a steeper angle to run towards the concrete barrel.

Quote:
So my conclusion would be that there is not enough proof based on that picture to prove or disprove the case however there are a few things that go beyond the photo:
1) If Israel were the saints you want us to believe they are children and civilians would never be in a position where a photo like that could be believed.
2) There are enough provable offenses by the occupation forces that make it possible to say that the photo may be real.
Then you haven't seen the video that was cut out. Remenber what Charles Enderlin, the editor of the clip, said in September 2003 : "We do not transform reality. But since some parts of the scene are unbearable, France 2 cut a few seconds from the scene, in accordance with our ethical charter."
He never thought that a court order would force him to reveal the "unbearable" clip. After all he works for France2, a national TV station, and the clip was supported by the president of France. The "unbearable" thing was that the boy lifted his arm to look at the camera. That's the clip that followed Enderlin's commentary that the boy was dead and was cut out.

Quote:
Therefore I would suggest that in this case Israel is being judged as much by the weight of evidence based on past actions as it is on information available in that picture so whether this happened or not is largely immaterial which is what I mentioned in the first line where I said it could only be used to determine a trend.
When you are being attacked by defferent groups you do not take the time to aim at a father and a boy behind a barrel with some journalists a few meters behind them. This is also on film, but not the one from France2. Look at the raw footage then you'll know it was staged. Look at the one who is supposedly hit in the leg (TCR 01:15:15:23). The driver keeps talking to the person on the other side of the jeep as nothing had happend. The bullet should have penetrated his leg and hit the other person or at least the jeep which should have alerted the driver. Then look at the medics, they lay him on the stretcher sideways on the "wounded" leg! Again, no blood. Pre war Hollywood actors were better than him. It's fake, it's Pallywood style. Do some research and you'll know, unless you don't want to know.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUz55tLLXUg
at TRC 01:17:59 the boy starts lifting his arm. That secene was cut because it was unbearable to look at!
August 15th, 2013  
MontyB
 
 
You have once again completely missed the point, it doesnt matter whether this event happened or not just as it does not matter whether 90% of the information out there is Palestinian propaganda the fact is people are believing it therefore Israel has already lost the battle of public opinion which in the long term becomes national opinion.

I have told you this countless times and still you persist in banging your head against the wall of perception only as time goes on you seem to have come to the conclusion that a longer run up will help you batter your way through when in reality all it will get you is a greater concussion.

So once again the problem for you is to convince people who are now receiving information within minutes of it happening world wide that what is happening is "ok" and for some reason you have chosen the unfathomable tactic of simply denying it happened when what you need to do is justify what is happening.

However all that really has to be discussed here is "why Israel is hated" and I would argue that it is hated because:
1) Many people do not see it as a legitimate state.
2) It has a horrible reputation in terms of its foreign policy (the fact that we routinely expel and jail Israelis for identity theft is a good enough reason for me).
3) It is a predator state that is only interested in expansion.
4) That it is defended by clowns who cling to the idea that because there was no Palestinian state means there are no Palestinians when anyone with half a brain cell knows that Palestine is a geographical tag not a national one.
5) That its occupation of land that is internationally recognised as not Israeli is not stopping them from displacement of that lands inhabitants and claiming it through what amounts to the ghettoising of the people on that land.

Now until such times as you can change those perceptions Israel for many of us will remain little more than a parasite on the arse of society the result of western guilt and little more than a 70 year old crusade a nation I would hope New Zealand will have nothing to do with.
August 17th, 2013  
ScarabVenom
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
2) It has a horrible reputation in terms of its foreign policy (the fact that we routinely expel and jail Israelis for identity theft is a good enough reason for me).
This one is interesting, can you please give examples?

Quote:
3) It is a predator state that is only interested in expansion.
True that.

Quote:
when anyone with half a brain cell knows that Palestine is a geographical tag not a national one.
This one is also interesting, Could I ask you to explain how it's just a geographical tag not a national one?
August 18th, 2013  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarabVenom
This one is interesting, can you please give examples?
Sure...
http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2010/...aeli-diplomat/

This was the first instance there have been a couple of others but they were the first to show up in the search...
http://www.americanfreepress.net/htm...li_agents.html

There have been about 4 or 5 instances since 2004 and a couple that saw an Israeli rescue team sent home because they turned up unannounced and no one trusted them.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...w-Zealand.html

These were just the New Zealand stories but the same issues have been raised from Britain and Australia.

Quote:
This one is also interesting, Could I ask you to explain how it's just a geographical tag not a national one?
Because the argument is correct when they say that there has never been a Palestinian state, Palestine is a region it has not been a state although it did appear on British maps as a nation between about 1830-1945, Palestinians are the inhabitants of a region known to the world for at least 3000 years as Palestine what religion they are is immaterial.

The strawman argument used to obfuscate the issue is that there has never been a nation of Palestine therefore there are no Palestinians but that is like arguing that there are no New Yorkers because there has never been a nation of New York, Floridians don't exist because there has never been the nation of Florida, you can apply the logic to anything you like and until someone actually thinks about it, it sounds logical when in reality it is complete bollocks.
 


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