So why do people hate Israel? - Page 135




 
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May 4th, 2013  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
I can't wait until Palestine gets full recognition and they start having all the israeli War Criminals placed on the International Watch List to be arrested on sight. I wonder who the Palestinian Simon Wiesenthal will be.

Whoever he is, he'll want to be a young man because he'll have a job for life.
In all honesty if Palestinians were to achieve full recognition I doubt they would bother chasing the ICC as they would have achieved their goals, personally I think what will drive them to the ICC is the lack of recognition and continued settlement expansion.

Essentially there is nothing stopping them pursuing legal matters now but I do get the impression that they believe the best course of action is the negotiated settlement based on the 1967 borders (which is pretty much what the world is expecting as well) which will become more difficult if they let things become mired in legal wrangling however if settlements continue to go up then I doubt they will have any other recourse but the ICC.

My suggestion is that if you get the chance go talk to them, they are a funny bunch fairly stoic (a trait that fits the ANZAC mind set) as you might expect and for the most part very welcoming and friendly.
May 4th, 2013  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
In all honesty if Palestinians were to achieve full recognition I doubt they would bother chasing the ICC \
If that is the case, I think you'll find that the matter will be taken out of the hands of the Palestinians, by a number of organizations like the UN and Amnesty International who will demand it of the ICJ.

Too many people have axes to grind, I mean to say, there is a backlog of 60+ years of War Crimes and Crimes against humanity, that without the US being able to veto, as they have in the past, will just all bubble up to the surface.
May 4th, 2013  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
No one cares what you think VD,... Palestine was flooded with illegal European Immigrants after WWII, who then drove the native population out of their own land into neighbouring countries at gunpoint killing many of those who resisted, and refused to allow them to return.

They then stole all of their land and possessions.

It's all been said before and the evidence has been available for over 60 years.
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What I wrote was not what I think but what people of that time saw and wrote about (FACTS not opinions), which has much more value than what modernday anti-Israel people write. Of course, we all know that you don't like to hear the truth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
No one cares what you think VD,... Palestine was flooded with illegal European Immigrants after WWII, who then drove the native population out of their own land into neighbouring countries at gunpoint killing many of those who resisted, and refused to allow them to return.

They then stole all of their land and possessions.

It's all been said before and the evidence has been available for over 60 years.
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An article full of errors.

- Settlements take up less than 5% of the west bank. (not the 70% the article want's you to believe)

- All settlements are on public land and NOT private Palestinian land as so many accuse Israel of doing.

- About those 400 people and more than 200 homes (must be rich families) : So out of 2.5 million people 400 who built houses without proper permits were forced to leave. That is .016% of the population. Hardly driving them out.

- The article doesn't mention that Israeli settlers were evacuated from West Bank outpost following court order.

- Moshe Yaalon, Israel’s new defence minister, the ultimate authority in the West Bank according to the article, has no authority at all in the West Bank area A and limited authority in Area B (only security together with the palestinians). In area C the Israeli government is in control.

- In every country you need a building permit to build a house. If you build one without it there is the possibility that it gets demolished. Palestinians ore not treated different, they need a building permit or else it could be demolished. Like :

Hamas to demolish 75 houses built on public lands
“Members of the Abu Amrah family in Gaza City demonstrated Tuesday in front of offices of the Palestinian Legislative Council protesting a decision by the Hamas-run government to demolish 75 houses belonging to the family in the al-Rimal neighborhood.

The government says it decided to demolish the houses because they were illegally built on public lands. The demolition is scheduled to be conducted Wednesday morning.”
Hamas demolishes Palestinian Arabs' illegal houses
"Hamas police expelled Palestinian Arabs from perhaps three dozen houses along the border of Sinai, and demolished them. Hamas said those houses were illegal, being erected on government property in Rafiah.
Masked Hamas policewomen beat fellow Arab women and children with clubs, until they evacuated the houses."
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
It would certainly appear that Google agrees with you, I would also suggest that it is becoming apparent that fewer and fewer groups are taking much notice of Israel's protestations either these days.

I really think Aesop's fables should be mandatory reading in Israel, I would start with "The boy who cried wolf" it may explain where things are heading.

Google recognises 'Palestine' on homepage

11:00 Sat May 4 2013
AAP

Google has recognised the Palestinians' upgraded UN status, placing the name "Palestine" on its search engine instead of "Palestinian Territories".
The domain name www.google.ps, Google's search engine for the territories, now brings up a homepage with "Palestine" written underneath the Google logo.
The change took effect on Wednesday, Google spokesman Nathan Tyler said in a statement on Friday.
"We're changing the name 'Palestinian Territories' to 'Palestine' across our products. We consult a number of sources and authorities when naming countries. In this case, we are following the lead of the UN ... and other international organisations," he said.
The UN General Assembly in November upgraded Palestine to the status of non-member observer state by a vote of 138 votes in favour, nine against and 41 abstentions.
Palestinian authorities have since begun to use the "State of Palestine" in diplomatic correspondence and issued official stamps for the purpose.
Israel questioned Google's decision.
"This change raises questions about the reasons behind this surprising involvement of what is basically a private internet company in international politics - and on the controversial side," foreign ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor told AFP.

http://news.msn.co.nz/worldnews/8652...ne-on-homepage

Amazing how something that doesn't exist now has a place on the map.
Do you also only read the first words that are written by writers who favor Israel?
I'll just give you the sentence of my post #1311 of this tread :
"The first Palestinian state was established in 1994 thanks to an accord with Israel."

Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
I can't wait until Palestine gets full recognition and they start having all the israeli War Criminals placed on the International Watch List to be arrested on sight. I wonder who the Palestinian Simon Wiesenthal will be.

Whoever he is, he'll want to be a young man because he'll have a job for life.
Me too, each and every rocket fired at civilian towns with no military value whatsoever is a war crime. How many did the Palestinians already fired?
BTW, retaliation after a rocket attack is legitimate.
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May 4th, 2013  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS

Me too, each and every rocket fired at civilian towns with no military value whatsoever is a war crime. How many did the Palestinians already fired?
BTW, retaliation after a rocket attack is legitimate.
I am not sure that is a valid argument as given that all Israeli citizens of military age are theoretically at least just off duty soldiers they must be legitimate targets.

In terms of retaliation using your logic it would make Saddam Husseins scud missile attacks legitimite once the coalition began its campaign, however one of the major problems in differentiating legal from illegal or criminal acts of war concerns apparently civilian objectives that may have a use by the military. Most buildings used by civilians in peacetime are protected under international law. Article 52 of Additional Protocol I states, “In case of doubt whether an object which is normally dedicated to civilian purposes, such as a place of worship, a house, or other dwelling or a school, is being used to make an effective contribution to military action, it shall be presumed not to be so used.”

Still no matter what decision is made attacking forces are still required to meet the test of whether predictable harm would be proportional to the military advantage and given the ineffectiveness of Hamas attacks on Israel I would argue that killing 20 civilians for 1 Hamas would not meet that test.

I have tried to stay away from using German/WW2 analogies in this pointless battle but in this case I think it applies, my belief is that Israel is not about destroying Hamas it is about retaliation it thinks that if it kills X Palestinians for every Israeli it will create enough fear in the local population it will buckle under but unlike the Germans it cant just march out 50-100 people and shoot them so it hides behind its "retaliation" and "right to self defense" statements, the problem is that while Israeli leadership rattles off these "excuses" and thinks people believe them it has failed to grasp that the western world has become so used to double speak from its own politicians that all but the most fanatical see it for what it is.
May 4th, 2013  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
- Settlements take up less than 5% of the west bank. (not the 70% the article want's you to believe)

- All settlements are on public land and NOT private Palestinian land as so many accuse Israel of doing.
I'm not talking about your illegal "settlements built on Palestinian land. I'm talking of Israel the whole place is no more than illegally occupied Palestine, and under International law no occupied land can be annexed as you are so well aware,....

No Jewish homeland was ever put in place, and even if it had it would have contravened the Mandate in the it was not in the best interests of the Palestinian people (the reason it never happened) The country was flooded with illegal European immigrants against the wishes of it's population.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
Do you also only read the first words that are written by writers who favor Israel?
I'll just give you the sentence of my post #1311 of this tread :
"The first Palestinian state was established in 1994 thanks to an accord with Israel."
I know it's obvious that you think I am an absolute idiot, but I'm not that stupid yet. I would no more take your rubbish seriously than, read and inwardly digest the wild ramblings, lies and distortions of Joseph Goebbels. I would rather stick with the facts undistorted by your fanatical deliberate misinterpretations and outright misrepresentation. e.g Settlements built on "public" land,... All land belongs to the native people, what you are talking of is only "public" land in the eyes of the occupiers. (enacted in clear contravention of International Law).
Quote:
Major Legal Principle Violated -

Military Action and Occupation are Only Legal when They are Purely Defensive.
2. Occupation Must Never Lead To Sovereignty over Occupied or Conquered Lands of the Enemy People or Nation.
4. The Occupant is Required to not Significantly Change Local Laws Unless Required For Its Own Security Or To Benefit The Local Population.
Israel's laws do neither, illegal settlements are no more than a land grab.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
Me too, each and every rocket fired at civilian towns with no military value whatsoever is a war crime. How many did the Palestinians already fired?
BTW, retaliation after a rocket attack is legitimate.
Resistance against an invader and occupier is not illegal. As has been pointed out a dozen times before.
May 5th, 2013  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
I'm not talking about your illegal "settlements built on Palestinian land. I'm talking of Israel the whole place is no more than illegally occupied Palestine, and under International law no occupied land can be annexed as you are so well aware,....
The land which is now Israel used to be Ottoman's, but that empire lost that territory (and it's existence) and was given by the International community to Israel. Israel didn't annex the land. Jordan did until they were fed-up with the Palestinians en renounced it in 1988. Did the Palestinians declared independence in 1988? NO!

Quote:
No Jewish homeland was ever put in place, and even if it had it would have contravened the Mandate in the it was not in the best interests of the Palestinian people (the reason it never happened) The country was flooded with illegal European immigrants against the wishes of it's population.
I advise you to read beyond the few lines you do now, then you would know how wrong you are.
The best interest for the Palestinian people was to live under Israeli rule. The average Arab in Israel has a far better life than the averge Arab in Palestine.

Arab unenployment Israel : 12% - Palestine : 21%
Average daily wage (NIS), 2011 Israel : 162.20 - Palestine 78.6 -94.3

Again you are disregarding the massive illegal Arab immigration. The Jewish immigration was not against the wishes of the local population but against the wishes of the fanatical clerics who incited the riots. Or did you forget that the first riots in Jerusalem targeted native born Jews and Jews praying at the wall and not the settlers!

Quote:
I know it's obvious that you think I am an absolute idiot, but I'm not that stupid yet. I would no more take your rubbish seriously than, read and inwardly digest the wild ramblings, lies and distortions of Joseph Goebbels. I would rather stick with the facts undistorted by your fanatical deliberate misinterpretations and outright misrepresentation. e.g Settlements built on "public" land,... All land belongs to the native people, what you are talking of is only "public" land in the eyes of the occupiers. (enacted in clear contravention of International Law).

Major Legal Principle Violated -

Military Action and Occupation are Only Legal when They are Purely Defensive.
2. Occupation Must Never Lead To Sovereignty over Occupied or Conquered Lands of the Enemy People or Nation.
4. The Occupant is Required to not Significantly Change Local Laws Unless Required For Its Own Security Or To Benefit The Local Population.

Israel's laws do neither, illegal settlements are no more than a land grab.
Israeli occupation is legal because Israel defended itself against the Arabs multiple times.

When Israel occupied the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip in 1967, it maintained the previous laws with some changes made in the form of military orders.

Quote:
Resistance against an invader and occupier is not illegal. As has been pointed out a dozen times before.
And a dozen times that quote does not apply to the Palestinians.
It's time that you learn to understand that Palestinians are not Aboriginals. They are not a tribe people. They lived in countries, with a government and a capital. Ottoman (region not called Palestine) , Britis Mandate , Jordan , Israel and since 1994 PA. Which one did Israel invade?
May 5th, 2013  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
The land which is now Israel used to be Ottoman's, but that empire lost that territory (and it's existence) and was given by the International community to Israel. Israel didn't annex the land. Jordan did until they were fed-up with the Palestinians en renounced it in 1988. Did the Palestinians declared independence in 1988? NO!
The international community said nothing of the sort. There was only ever a an un ratified recommendation. All answered several times in previous posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
I advise you to read beyond the few lines you do now, then you would know how wrong you are.
Your "advise" is no more than Hasbara at best, and Zionazi propaganda at it's worst, totally meaningless outside the pro Zionist community.
The Palestinians aren't interested in what you or their thieving, murdering occupiers think "is in their best interests". If I were to steal all your belongings and murder anyone that objected or resisted, then treat you like an animal,..... any court in the non Zionist world would have me committed as a raving lunatic if I attempted to use the defence, "I thought it was in your best interests". This is a typical piece of your Hasbara Bullsh!t, and is exactly the type of reason why anything you say can be written off as totally worthless.

I think I could say without any fear of contradiction, that the fact you actually believe such a stupid statement is clear evidence that you are either a pathological liar or in urgent need of psychiatric help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
Again you are disregarding the massive illegal Arab immigration. The Jewish immigration was not against the wishes of the local population but against the wishes of the fanatical clerics who incited the riots. Or did you forget that the first riots in Jerusalem targeted native born Jews and Jews praying at the wall and not the settlers!
Having had a number of relatives who left Palestine due to Zionist trouble makers in the 1890s, I know that you are again merely quoting Hasbara trash.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
Israeli occupation is legal because Israel defended itself against the Arabs multiple times.
As previously shown the Zionists were there illegally and the fact that they stole the land and the Arabs resisted gives them no rights. International law rulings all posted several times previously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
And a dozen times that quote does not apply to the Palestinians.
Only in the eyes of the Israelis.
The Palestinians are recognised as the native people by everyone except the pro Zionists. All of the unrelated rubbish you state about tribal people having no bearing on the matter whatsoever. More Hasbara "fluff".

May 6th, 2013  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS

Arab unenployment Israel : 12% - Palestine : 21%
Average daily wage (NIS), 2011 Israel : 162.20 - Palestine 78.6 -94.3

Really?

Given the conditions Palestinians live under (lack of facilities, difficulties in moving around and just general spitefulness of the occupation forces and "settlers") I would suggest that they are doing better than expected if those figures are right especially when you look at places like Nevada in the US sitting around 10% and no one blows up everything they build.

Hell they aren't in the top 30 worst off for unemployment (seems they are 37th) not bad for an occupied nation.
May 6th, 2013  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
The international community said nothing of the sort. There was only ever a an un ratified recommendation. All answered several times in previous posts.
Yes, and your answers were each and every time wrong.

The Council of the League of Nations : The Palestine Mandate : Article 1
"The Mandatory shall have full powers of legislation and of administration, save as they may be limited by the terms of this mandate."

Article 2 : ...will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home..."

Article 6 : ...shall facilitate Jewish immigration..."

Article 22 : ...English, Arabic and Hebrew shall be the official languages of Palestine. Any statement or inscription in Arabic on stamps or money in Palestine shall be repeated in Hebrew...


Quote:
Your "advise" is no more than Hasbara at best, and Zionazi propaganda at it's worst, totally meaningless outside the pro Zionist community.
The Palestinians aren't interested in what you or their thieving, murdering occupiers think "is in their best interests". If I were to steal all your belongings and murder anyone that objected or resisted, then treat you like an animal,..... any court in the non Zionist world would have me committed as a raving lunatic if I attempted to use the defence, "I thought it was in your best interests". This is a typical piece of your Hasbara Bullsh!t, and is exactly the type of reason why anything you say can be written off as totally worthless.

I think I could say without any fear of contradiction, that the fact you actually believe such a stupid statement is clear evidence that you are either a pathological liar or in urgent need of psychiatric help.
Amen. Not one fact to disprove what I've said. Just your usual litany.

Quote:
Having had a number of relatives who left Palestine due to Zionist trouble makers in the 1890s, I know that you are again merely quoting Hasbara trash.
That's what you are saying, but is that the truth? Maybe he left because of roving Bedouins, or hardship, or because jews were heavely taxed and treated as second class citizens.
You must give me verifiable facts before I want to believe that.

Quote:
As previously shown the Zionists were there illegally and the fact that they stole the land and the Arabs resisted gives them no rights. International law rulings all posted several times previously.
Again rubbish. Even the illegal immigrants (Arabs, Jews,..) were legalised by the British Mandate. Buying land is not the same as stealing. Or are you telling me that your ancester stole the land of a fellah family?

Quote:
Only in the eyes of the Israelis.
The Palestinians are recognised as the native people by everyone except the pro Zionists. All of the unrelated rubbish you state about tribal people having no bearing on the matter whatsoever. More Hasbara "fluff".
And among those native people were Jews, Christians and Moslims. Among the immigrants were Jews, Christians and Moslims. I never heard you say one word about the illegal immigration of Arabs. Or rich Arabs who lived outside Palestine and bought the land of the Fellah's and exploiting them. Or roving Bedouins who attacked the Fellah's and stole or destroyed the remainder of their crops.
You have a very biased view.
May 6th, 2013  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
Yes, and your answers were each and every time wrong.

The Council of the League of Nations : The Palestine Mandate : Article 1
"The Mandatory shall have full powers of legislation and of administration, save as they may be limited by the terms of this mandate."

Article 2 : ...will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home..."

Article 6 : ...shall facilitate Jewish immigration..."

Article 22 : ...English, Arabic and Hebrew shall be the official languages of Palestine. Any statement or inscription in Arabic on stamps or money in Palestine shall be repeated in Hebrew...
Good try VD but no better than your usual repeated lies, in that it has already been pointed out numerous times that none of this could occur because it would have contravened the primary ruling that no harm must come to the Palestinian people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
Amen. Not one fact to disprove what I've said. Just your usual litany.
As usual your own stupid reasoning was all the proof anyone needs, you make it so easy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
That's what you are saying, but is that the truth? Maybe he left because of roving Bedouins, or hardship, or because jews were heavely taxed and treated as second class citizens.
You must give me verifiable facts before I want to believe that.
It is a matter of family history and no one cares whether you believe it. The very fact hat he and his family lived peaceably among his Arab neighbours is a pretty good indication that the land was not stolen. It was problems arising from the subsequent land grabs by militant Zionists that caused most of the family to come to Australia. I still have family in Israel and funnily enough I was invited to the wedding of one of my relatives with whom I am in regular contact, Sarah Moss to Yahoyda Be'eri at Kibbutz Ramat Rachel (Near Jerusalem) in 1999, my contacts are a lot closer than you think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
Again rubbish. Even the illegal immigrants (Arabs, Jews,..) were legalised by the British Mandate. Buying land is not the same as stealing. Or are you telling me that your ancester stole the land of a fellah family?
And where is your verifiable truth? Only legal migrants were recognised. It is a recorded fact that the Brits were doing all in their power to limit legal immigration and stop the Illegal immigrants, not legalise them, hence the violent terror campaign by the Zionist terror groups. Your lies catch up with you at every turn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
And among those native people were Jews, Christians and Moslims. Among the immigrants were Jews, Christians and Moslims. I never heard you say one word about the illegal immigration of Arabs. Or rich Arabs who lived outside Palestine and bought the land of the Fellah's and exploiting them. Or roving Bedouins who attacked the Fellah's and stole or destroyed the remainder of their crops.
You have a very biased view.
The subject of the thread is not about Arab migration it's about why Israel is hated. Other than which I have never read of any Palestinian resistance to the Arabs.

Yes my view is biased,... towards the truth.
 


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