Originally Posted by senojekips

Smart butt??.... is it that you are naturally stupid, just don't understand what is being discussed, or are you just trying to be obtuse.

RayManKiller does understand, it's you that turns everything into a anti-zionist point of view.

Firstly we have already shown earlier that morality is not something that you can just change to suit your views. If this were so, there would be no "morality", as everyone would claim that their actions were morally correct "in their opinion".

And who has the authority to say what morality is or not. The Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court? And what with the countries who didn't sign and or ratify it? Do not forget that politics make rule of law. Not the way around.

Secondly, this discussion is not about "state or federal laws" but, crimes against humanity. If your opinion were correct, we could never have charged most war criminals, as they were nearly always obeying laws that were quite legal in their own country at that time. How many times do you have to be told these things?

Well, suppose someone is a police officer in a country with a law that says that all ... must be killed, if you do not obey that law you get the death penalty. What is that person going to do? If he disobeys the law he get shot. Case closed. If he obeys the law he risks being accused by the ICC for crimes against humanity. What would you do?
Do not forget that most, if not all, war criminals were convicted after their country was conquered or liberated. One is still running his country (Sudan)

Originally Posted by MontyB

Quick question would you feel the same if it were your land?

I'll give you my amswer MontyB.
You fight within the rule of law. I clarify.

In Antwerp (Belgium) there's a big muslim minority. Most local people don't like them. We could arm ourselfs but we don't, we stay within the rule of law. That's why there's a big right wing political party that gets many votes. The muslims came there legally (like the Jews in the region of Palestine). They bought property from the locals. (like the Jews in the region of Palestine). We didn't attack them like the Arab Palestinians did and still do. They cannot declare a state for themselves unless the Belgian government decides to give them one. The Jews couldn't declare a state for themselves unless the rulers decided to do so, and they did! For the Jews AND the Palestinians.
So, when you get a country from the UN and you get attacked by troops who rejected their country doesn't that give you the right to fight back?

Now about the "people who live there". Look at a timeline of maps here.
Who decided about the foundation and the borders of all those new countries? The people who lived there or the ones who ruled there? First come politics, then rule of law (created by the politics) then the people who live there. (in a democracy they choose the politics).

Originally Posted by VDKMS

What's wrong with Ben Gurion's quotes? He does not give his point of view but the Palestinian one. How they see it. He knew his "enemy".

There is absolutely nothing wrong with his quotes as they show that he understood that Israel was wrong in taking the land of another people. They also clearly show that he understood that the land did belong to the Palestinian people.

Originally Posted by VDKMS

RayManKiller does understand, it's you that turns everything into a anti-zionist point of view.

So you keep saying,.... The truth would be nearer to, "He understands your point of view", which explains a lot, as it is totally without either legal or moral support, being exactly the same quality and veracity, as that of a Nazi apologist in the 1930s.
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Today's Zionist tidbit. (Read "Lie")
"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to."
-- Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.

Originally Posted by senojekips

There is absolutely nothing wrong with his quotes as they show that he understood that Israel was wrong in taking the land of another people. They also clearly show that he understood that the land did belong to the Palestinian people.

You better read that statement as many times as you can untill you understand it.

S
Today's Zionist tidbit. (Read "Lie")
"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to."
-- Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.

Well you did it again. You leave out someting. Here is the more complet quote:
"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to. We can't send it to Nasser by parcel post . (March 8, 1969.)"

That statement reflects accurately the politics of the time. Jordan was a great supporter of the Three Nos (No Peace, Recognition, or Negotiations with Israel), as was Egypt, and the PLO which untill three years before that had renounced it's claims to Gaza Strip and the West Bank. To put it simply there was no Peace Partner.

Originally Posted by VDKMS

You better read that statement as many times as you can untill you understand it.

Unlike yourself, I understood it on the first reading as I had no need to distort what was actually said to suit my needs. Like RayManKiller, you would find it far easier to read what is written, rather than trying to distort it into what you would have liked it to have said.

Originally Posted by VDKMS

Well you did it again. You leave out someting. Here is the more complet quote:
"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to. We can't send it to Nasser by parcel post . (March 8, 1969.)"

I left out many things, including Golda's famous recipe for her Passover Chicken Broth, none of which made the slightest difference to what was actually said. The implication was still there that there were no Palestinian people. This was further reinforced by her statement only a few months later, “There is no such thing as a Palestinian people… It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn’t exist.”
– Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.

You see, it's far easier to just quote the truth than to constantly be looking for ways of excusing what was said.
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Here's today's Zionist tidbit, demonstrating the mentality and intent of these animals. And Yes,... I know, I have shortened it, because it made no difference to the intent of what was said and No, I don't think it was written in someone's diary.
"The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

Originally Posted by senojekips

Unlike yourself, I understood it on the first reading as I had no need to distort what was actually said to suit my needs. Like RayManKiller, you should read what is written, rather than trying to make it into what you would have liked it to have said.

What I see in that quote is the person showing the view of the Palestinians. It is not necessarily agreeing with them (that it is the Palestinian land nor is it saying the Jews are trying to take it); it is simply what the Palestinians believe is going on. That is how I interpreted the quote. Words can be twisted unless extremely specific anyways. You kind of did the same thing by not pointing out "politically" in the quote, which can change interpretation. Even a single word being left out or being put in can change interpretation.

Originally Posted by RayManKiller3

What I see in that quote is the person showing the view of the Palestinians. It is not necessarily agreeing with them .

Are you blind or just don't bother reading people's posts.

Originally Posted by senojekips

Like RayManKiller, you would find it far easier to read what is written, rather than trying to distort it into what you would have liked it to have said.

I have always held a very neutral view on the situation described here.

Although I don't always agree with Israel's uses of force, I also don't agree with seeing it wiped off the map, or the entire region thrown into chaos from any imploding tensions there.

I also hope for the very best for the Palestinians, but there is little more I can do in that respect, I do wish for them to have representation and a chance at an equal quality of life as their neighbors over the fence, but about a thousand different complications make that ever more difficult.

Just for a minute put your self in the Palestinian camp and ask your self what you would do if you were them.
A group of people are awarded people are awarded by the UN a chunk of your country that has been yours for nearly two thousand years. Now this does not go down well with the people that had been living there for years so there is an uprising and with the help of a powerful friend this is put down and several million of the original people are now pushed off this ground and made stateless with out any compensation. Now there are several other conflicts over this territory by adjoining countries and again with help from a super power they lose out every time. Now the interlopers are so strong that groups of armed civilians will take your land force to build settlements on and if you object you can well be killed along with your family.
When the settlement is built they need roads to travel to and from the settlements so the roads are built across your land and any Palestinian that lives any where near that road will have his house blown up for security reasons.
All goods going in to Palestine have to go threw an Israeli port and are taxed which you have to pay. To over come this the Palestinians built both an air port and a small Port to over come this tax, but the Israelis destroyed these. so that they had complete control over just what went into Palestine and carried on getting the tax.
Now the Israelis were complaining about security to one of there settlements so the Palestinians put four of their police officers there to make sure nothing would happen, but it did they were shot by the Israeli settlers.
Now America broke away from the UK over a tax on imported goods to pay for the forces that protected them from the red Indians. Yet they are happy see a friend kill many helpless people and impose on them conditions that they would never accept.
Do I think the Israelis should be able to live there in peace, well yes I do but this will never happen unless they can treat the other residents with respect.
Can I ask you this question if you were a Palestinian would you take up arms and fight for what little you have left.

Originally Posted by LeEnfield

Can I ask you this question if you were a Palestinian would you take up arms and fight for what little you have left.

I know this wasn't directed at me but I'll answer anyway.

No,... I would take up arms to fight for all of what was mine. Why should I or anyone else be expected to settle for less.

The current situation in Palestine reminds me of the old adage. "One man's "joke", is no more than something really nasty, that happens to someone else".