Should the west have gone after Russia or Germany...

[lljadw]

A landing immediately after Dynamo was out of the questing, as the harbors were destroyed and there were no transport ships .
Besides, the war against France was not over .

 

[MontyB]

A landing immediately after Dynamo was out of the questing, as the harbors were destroyed and there were no transport ships .
Besides, the war against France was not over .

No argument from me but the reality is that it was the only window for success that the Germans had with a cobbled together invasion fleet.

Even for this to work it means they would have had to have planned it as part of the invasion of France and the low countries and I am not convinced they were all that confident that would work.

 

[BritinBritain]

No argument from me but the reality is that it was the only window for success that the Germans had with a cobbled together invasion fleet.

Even for this to work it means they would have had to have planned it as part of the invasion of France and the low countries and I am not convinced they were all that confident that would work.

Even if 11 Group had been destroyed (by all accounts it was quite close) as was mentioned on here previously, survivors of 11 group would have either joined 10 or 12 group maybe both. However, bomber command and costal command would have joined in the fight, probably escorted by fighters from 10 and or 12 Groups and no doubt with help from the fleet air arm.

 

[MontyB]

Even if 11 Group had been destroyed (by all accounts it was quite close) as was mentioned on here previously, survivors of 11 group would have either joined 10 or 12 group maybe both. However, bomber command and costal command would have joined in the fight, probably escorted by fighters from 10 and or 12 Groups and no doubt with help from the fleet air arm.

All true, it was the reason I was rather cautious about that youtube link I posted earlier, it essentially assumed that there would be one battle with the Luftwaffe/Kriegsmarine and then the RAF/RN would almost cease to exist for the rest of the battle.

I also probably should have pointed out from the start that this is a purely hypothetical discussion as we know how history panned out all we are looking for is the conditions that may have contributed to an alternative outcome.

It is a lot like the Lotzen decision arguments, while there may be unrealistic scenarios there really aren't any wrong ones, for example had the West gone to war with Russia in June or July 1945 and followed through on Japanese feelers for peace in early May (Both the US State Dept and the Japanese govt encouraged peace initiative's via Sweden at this point) then not only would the West have the resources for war but also a couple of spare atomic bombs to even up the numbers a bit.

**According to The Rising Sun: The Decline and Fall of the Japanese Empire by John Toland there were two May peace feelers both involving Allen Dulles, both almost succeeded but but got fouled in translation.

 

[BritinBritain]

All true, it was the reason I was rather cautious about that youtube link I posted earlier, it essentially assumed that there would be one battle with the Luftwaffe/Kriegsmarine and then the RAF/RN would almost cease to exist for the rest of the battle.

I also probably should have pointed out from the start that this is a purely hypothetical discussion as we know how history panned out all we are looking for is the conditions that may have contributed to an alternative outcome.

It is a lot like the Lotzen decision arguments, while there may be unrealistic scenarios there really aren't any wrong ones, for example had the West gone to war with Russia in June or July 1945 and followed through on Japanese feelers for peace in early May (Both the US State Dept and the Japanese govt encouraged peace initiative's via Sweden at this point) then not only would the West have the resources for war but also a couple of spare atomic bombs to even up the numbers a bit.

**According to The Rising Sun: The Decline and Fall of the Japanese Empire by John Toland there were two May peace feelers both involving Allen Dulles, both almost succeeded but but got fouled in translation.

To be honest, I'd rather the Japanese were on the receiving end of the two atom bombs, I wished Japan had been bombed until the country sank from sight below the sea

 

[MontyB]

To be honest, I'd rather the Japanese were on the receiving end of the two atom bombs, I wished Japan had been bombed until the country sank from sight below the sea

I understand why but I imagine there are just as many who wished the same for Germany and Russia for exactly the same reason.

 

[BritinBritain]

I understand why but I imagine there are just as many who wished the same for Germany and Russia for exactly the same reason.

The difference is, Germans and Russians were glad to get rid of their dictators, the Japanese still thought their emperor was a god even after the surrender. In my opinion the Japanese regime were the most evil during WW2

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

These "What If" discussions can be fun. I have occasionally been thinking what would Britain and France do if the Soviet Union had attacked Poland first.

 

[MontyB]

The difference is, Germans and Russians were glad to get rid of their dictators, the Japanese still thought their emperor was a god even after the surrender. In my opinion the Japanese regime were the most evil during WW2

The Russians still have theirs and the Germans pretty much followed theirs until destruction, had the wehrmacht still been winning battles Hitler would have had a long career with very little resistance from the German people, I am not for an instant mitigating Japanese atrocities but Germany and Russia were no better.

These "What If" discussions can be fun. I have occasionally been thinking what would Britain and France do if the Soviet Union had attacked Poland first.

I once posed a similar question and it is a hard one to answer, most people point out Churchill's dislike of Hitler without realizing that Chamberlain was the guy in charge and he had very different views.
My guess is that it wouldn't have changed things greatly as the Germans would have stopped the British/French from delivering aid to Poland and then pulled a Russia and invaded under the pretext of supporting ethnic Germans in western Poland.
It may have provided a pretext for a German, Britain/France non-aggression pact and allowed the Germans to go east sooner without the need to invade France, Greece etc but it is had to say where Chamberlain's limits were.

 

[George]

I once posed a similar question and it is a hard one to answer, most people point out Churchill's dislike of Hitler without realizing that Chamberlain was the guy in charge and he had very different views.
My guess is that it wouldn't have changed things greatly as the Germans would have stopped the British/French from delivering aid to Poland and then pulled a Russia and invaded under the pretext of supporting ethnic Germans in western Poland.
It may have provided a pretext for a German, Britain/France non-aggression pact and allowed the Germans to go east sooner without the need to invade France, Greece etc but it is had to say where Chamberlain's limits were.

Soviet invasion of Poland: Probably pretty much the same as when they invaded Finland to start the Winter War.

 

[MontyB]

Soviet invasion of Poland: Probably pretty much the same as when they invaded Finland to start the Winter War.

Yes but that is what makes it interesting, the Anglo-Polish alliance was clearly created with Germany as the aggressor in mind but it doesn't specifically mention Germany however it never made any promises regarding attack from a third party.

 

[BritinBritain]

The Russians still have theirs and the Germans pretty much followed theirs until destruction, had the wehrmacht still been winning battles Hitler would have had a long career with very little resistance from the German people, I am not for an instant mitigating Japanese atrocities but Germany and Russia were no better..

I very much doubt that Putin is anywhere near a bad as Stalin, but I could be wrong. Eventually the Germans got rid of Hitler and the NAZI party. In my opinion the atrocities by the Japanese were far worse then at least the German POW camps, where Red Cross Parcels were issued and Red Cross inspections were carried out. I would agree the Soviets didnt treat their POW's as laid down by the Geneva Convention. Over 90,000 German troops captured at Stalingrad comes to mind. However, I do stand by my earlier statement that the Japanese regime were the most evil during WW2

I once posed a similar question and it is a hard one to answer, most people point out Churchill's dislike of Hitler without realizing that Chamberlain was the guy in charge and he had very different views.
My guess is that it wouldn't have changed things greatly as the Germans would have stopped the British/French from delivering aid to Poland and then pulled a Russia and invaded under the pretext of supporting ethnic Germans in western Poland.
It may have provided a pretext for a German, Britain/France non-aggression pact and allowed the Germans to go east sooner without the need to invade France, Greece etc but it is had to say where Chamberlain's limits were.

Chamberlain as is well known, was an appeaser, he remembered the carnage of WW1 and didnt want to see a repeat.

 

[BritinBritain]

These "What If" discussions can be fun. I have occasionally been thinking what would Britain and France do if the Soviet Union had attacked Poland first.

Its interesting that Britain were willing to assist the Finns against the Soviets if they had not been allied to Germany.

 

[George]

Its interesting that Britain were willing to assist the Finns against the Soviets if they had not been allied to Germany.

Don't think the Finns were allied with Germany during The Winter War, the Germans supported the Soviets and pretty much blocked support from the West for Finland.

 

[MontyB]

I very much doubt that Putin is anywhere near a bad as Stalin, but I could be wrong. Eventually the Germans got rid of Hitler and the NAZI party. In my opinion the atrocities by the Japanese were far worse then at least the German POW camps, where Red Cross Parcels were issued and Red Cross inspections were carried out. I would agree the Soviets didnt treat their POW's as laid down by the Geneva Convention. Over 90,000 German troops captured at Stalingrad comes to mind. However, I do stand by my earlier statement that the Japanese regime were the most evil during WW2

I think it is somewhat inaccurate to say the Germans got rid of Hitler, had half a million Russians not parked themselves in Berlin he would still be there ranting and raving.
The Germans were never going to get rid of Hitler voluntarily.

Chamberlain as is well known, was an appeaser, he remembered the carnage of WW1 and didnt want to see a repeat.

The more I look at Chamberlain the more respect I have for the man, he did everything he could to avoid war and has been lambasted as an appeaser yet he did draw a line in the sand and declared war on Germany when they crossed it.
He also was prepared to support Finland against the Russians.
I honestly do not see his lack of desire to get into another world war as a bad thing and when he could no longer avoid war he committed to it, these days most of us would love a politician with that level of conviction.

 

[BritinBritain]

I think it is somewhat inaccurate to say the Germans got rid of Hitler, had half a million Russians not parked themselves in Berlin he would still be there ranting and raving.
The Germans were never going to get rid of Hitler voluntarily.

It doesnt matter who got rid of Hitler, the Germans were rid of him finally

The more I look at Chamberlain the more respect I have for the man, he did everything he could to avoid war and has been lambasted as an appeaser yet he did draw a line in the sand and declared war on Germany when they crossed it.

Sir Oswald Mosley also wanted to avoid war, he also saw the horrors of the First World War and didnt want a repeat. However, his efforts didnt go down too well as he began the British Union of Fascists and had meetings with Benito Mussolini in 1936.

Chamberlin threw Czechoslovakia to the wolves, somehow I don't think the Czechs would agree with you, Thatcher apologised to Czechoslovakia for Chamberlin's betrayal in 1990.

He also was prepared to support Finland against the Russians. I honestly do not see his lack of desire to get into another world war as a bad thing and when he could no longer avoid war he committed to it, these days most of us would love a politician with that level of conviction.

As I have said previously Chamberlin was an appeaser, after the debacle in Norway Chamberlin was forced to resign in favour of Churchill. During the 1930's Churchill spoke often of the threat of Germany and was called a warmonger. He might have been prepared to support Finland against Russia, but did he have the means to carry out such an operation.

I'd rather another Churchill instead of Chamberlin as my Prime Minister.

 

[BritinBritain]

Don't think the Finns were allied with Germany during The Winter War, the Germans supported the Soviets and pretty much blocked support from the West for Finland.

I actually find this hard to understand, it is well known that Hitler hated the Soviets, then eventually allied with the Finns.

 

[George]

I actually find this hard to understand, it is well known that Hitler hated the Soviets, then eventually allied with the Finns.

At the time Hitler was buying a lot of raw materials from Stalin, sold them an unfinished Cruiser, and was supposed to supply armament for a Battle Cruiser the Soviets were building.

 

[BritinBritain]

At the time Hitler was buying a lot of raw materials from Stalin, sold them an unfinished Cruiser, and was supposed to supply armament for a Battle Cruiser the Soviets were building.

I knew Stalin was providing quite a lot of raw materials to Germany, but I find it difficult to understand Hitler supplying armament for a battle cruiser, knowing that in the near future they would go to war.

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

There are two other "what ifs" that can be fun to discuss. What if Hitler didn't attack the Soviet Union? What would Europe be like if he didn't? The Second one is; what if Nazi-Germany didn't declare war on the US