Originally Posted by BritinBritain

I'd say Patton's 6 day theory is a lot more then optimistic, I wouldn't even attempt to put in a time frame for this operation, but I'm not too sure regarding the Soviet logistics system. On their way to Berlin, if I remember correctly, equipment and man power that was destroyed was quickly replaced, were there not factories churning out T34's, putting them into operation before the paint on them was dry. I still think Patton would have one hell of a fight on his hands if he attempted such an operation, even with help from the western allies as well as the Germans military machine that was still intact.

I think the great unknowns in any Allies vs Soviets 1945 scenario is:
1. The Red Air Force.
2. The state of Russian manpower in 1945, how close to running on empty were they.
3. How would Russian logistics have handled allied airpower especially since from Western Germany any staging areas as far back as the Polish/Russian border was within fighter and bomber range.

On the ground Russian armour troop numbers and artillery had a major advantage but how well they would have survived daily 1000 bomber raids is another question.

Originally Posted by MontyB

I think the great unknowns in any Allies vs Soviets 1945 scenario is:
1. The Red Air Force.
2. The state of Russian manpower in 1945, how close to running on empty were they.
3. How would Russian logistics have handled allied airpower especially since from Western Germany any staging areas as far back as the Polish/Russian border was within fighter and bomber range.

On the ground Russian armour troop numbers and artillery had a major advantage but how well they would have survived daily 1000 bomber raids is another question.

The Red Air Force and its aircraft from what I have read were no where as effective as British or American aircraft or air forces.

As regards Russian man power is anyone's guess, Russia is a vast country with vast resources of manpower, Stalin I have no doubt would sacrifice millions of his own men to face the western powers.

If the attacks on German logistics in the closing months of 1944 into 1945 are anything to go by, I'd suggest that Allied airpower would probably decimate the Soviet logistic organisation.

In my opinion British, American and German armour, as well as field artillery would be more then a match for the Soviet equipment. The British Centurion tank for example was manufactured to take on the German Tiger, the war however, drew to a close before it could be deployed into a combat scenario. The Centurion is still used today by the South Africa Army know as the Oliphant or Elephant.

Originally Posted by MontyB

I think the great unknowns in any Allies vs Soviets 1945 scenario is:
1. The Red Air Force.
2. The state of Russian manpower in 1945, how close to running on empty were they.
3. How would Russian logistics have handled allied airpower especially since from Western Germany any staging areas as far back as the Polish/Russian border was within fighter and bomber range.

On the ground Russian armour troop numbers and artillery had a major advantage but how well they would have survived daily 1000 bomber raids is another question.

OTOH,an allied advance would be hindered by distance ( a lot of supplies were still coming from the South of France ), logistics the retreating Soviets would destroy railways and bridges ),Soviet partisans in Poland and CZ.
It is very questionable that the allies could have arrived in Poland,and an advance to Moscow was out of the question .

Originally Posted by BritinBritain

The Red Air Force and its aircraft from what I have read were no where as effective as British or American aircraft or air forces.

As regards Russian man power is anyone's guess, Russia is a vast country with vast resources of manpower, Stalin I have no doubt would sacrifice millions of his own men to face the western powers.

If the attacks on German logistics in the closing months of 1944 into 1945 are anything to go by, I'd suggest that Allied airpower would probably decimate the Soviet logistic organisation.

In my opinion British, American and German armour, as well as field artillery would be more then a match for the Soviet equipment. The British Centurion tank for example was manufactured to take on the German Tiger, the war however, drew to a close before it could be deployed into a combat scenario. The Centurion is still used today by the South Africa Army know as the Oliphant or Elephant.

While true the number of allied heavy tanks available in mid-1945 was tiny by by comparison to Russian medium plus tanks.
The Allies ability to win this scenario would hinge almost entirely on the west maintaining air superiority.

Originally Posted by lljadw

OTOH,an allied advance would be hindered by distance ( a lot of supplies were still coming from the South of France ), logistics the retreating Soviets would destroy railways and bridges ),Soviet partisans in Poland and CZ.
It is very questionable that the allies could have arrived in Poland,and an advance to Moscow was out of the question .

I agree to some degree although I would question the number, effectiveness and support for a Soviet partisan movement in any of the occupied territories especially Poland, East Germany and the Baltic states (hell even the Ukraine saw the Germans as liberators for a time).

One other area that may have helped the Allies was German industriousness, in the last four months of the war they produced a phenomenal amount of equipment in bombed out ruins and very few raw materials, the ability to carry on production without the air raids and with a supply of high quality raw materials may have been telling especially had the envisioned 10+ German division been activated.

Originally Posted by MontyB

While true the number of allied heavy tanks available in mid-1945 was tiny by by comparison to Russian medium plus tanks.
The Allies ability to win this scenario would hinge almost entirely on the west maintaining air superiority.




I agree to some degree although I would question the number, effectiveness and support for a Soviet partisan movement in any of the occupied territories especially Poland, East Germany and the Baltic states (hell even the Ukraine saw the Germans as liberators for a time).

One other area that may have helped the Allies was German industriousness, in the last four months of the war they produced a phenomenal amount of equipment in bombed out ruins and very few raw materials, the ability to carry on production without the air raids and with a supply of high quality raw materials may have been telling especially had the envisioned 10+ German division been activated.

The use of German divisions would be suicidal :an invasion of Poland and CZ by a joint allied -German army would have as result that the Poles and Czechs would join the Soviets : after Lidice and Auschwitz NO single Polish /Czech civilian would acclaim the entering Western forces,if these included Wehrmacht units .Even the army of Anders would rebel and the army of Berling would fight with the Soviets ..And, what would be the utility of war with the USSR,if the allies would stop at the border of Poland/of CZ ?
And, a war against the USSR in 1945 would have very unpleasant results in Italy and France where the communists dominated the resistance and the media and would surely rebel .
The PCF obtained 26 % in the French elections of 1946, in Italy the Communists obtained the same year 19 % .

Originally Posted by lljadw

The use of German divisions would be suicidal :an invasion of Poland and CZ by a joint allied -German army would have as result that the Poles and Czechs would join the Soviets : after Lidice and Auschwitz NO single Polish /Czech civilian would acclaim the entering Western forces,if these included Wehrmacht units .Even the army of Anders would rebel and the army of Berling would fight with the Soviets ..And, what would be the utility of war with the USSR,if the allies would stop at the border of Poland/of CZ ?
And, a war against the USSR in 1945 would have very unpleasant results in Italy and France where the communists dominated the resistance and the media and would surely rebel .
The PCF obtained 26 % in the French elections of 1946, in Italy the Communists obtained the same year 19 % .

Hard to determine how that scenario would have panned out however German troops could have been used in East Germany, Austria, East Prussia and given that in mid-1945 there were still around 300,000 German troops in Norway, reinforcing them to operate as defacto 2nd front to tie down Russian troops was an option.

I accept that the Germans were not popular in any country they had occupied however I suspect they were no less popular than the Russians in East Prussia, Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia and Austria.

Originally Posted by MontyB

Hard to determine how that scenario would have panned out however German troops could have been used in East Germany, Austria, East Prussia and given that in mid-1945 there were still around 300,000 German troops in Norway, reinforcing them to operate as defacto 2nd front to tie down Russian troops was an option.

I accept that the Germans were not popular in any country they had occupied however I suspect they were no less popular than the Russians in East Prussia, Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia and Austria.

What would be worse, living under a brutal Stalinist regime or possibly being liberated by Germans under the control of western allies?

Originally Posted by BritinBritain

What would be worse, living under a brutal Stalinist regime or possibly being liberated by Germans under the control of western allies?

Again hard to say as I doubt Poland or the Baltic states had much love for the Russians but as Lljadw pointed out German attrocities didnt win a hell of a lot of friends with the locals either.


There were however a number of pro-German states occupied by the Russians that German troops could have been used.


The other thing is that I doubt the German divisions would have in German uniform as evidenced by their use of US uniforms while working for the allies immediately after the war.

Originally Posted by MontyB

Again hard to say as I doubt Poland or the Baltic states had much love for the Russians but as Lljadw pointed out German attrocities didnt win a hell of a lot of friends with the locals either.


There were however a number of pro-German states occupied by the Russians that German troops could have been used.


The other thing is that I doubt the German divisions would have in German uniform as evidenced by their use of US uniforms while working for the allies immediately after the war.

Its a pity that the whole of the German Army is tarred with the same brush as the SS and police units.

Originally Posted by MontyB

Hard to determine how that scenario would have panned out however German troops could have been used in East Germany, Austria, East Prussia and given that in mid-1945 there were still around 300,000 German troops in Norway, reinforcing them to operate as defacto 2nd front to tie down Russian troops was an option.

I accept that the Germans were not popular in any country they had occupied however I suspect they were no less popular than the Russians in East Prussia, Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia and Austria.

The problem was that the anti-Soviet groups were also anti-German. In Poland and in CZ the expulsion of the remaining Germans had started, expulsion which was done by Polish and Czech military and militia, not by the Soviets . And, this expulsion had been decided at Yalta .
In both countries there was only one good German : a dead one .
German troops could not be used in the territories east of the Oder which were now a part of Poland,to go to East Prussia,they had to pass by Stettin which was now Polish .
To go to the Baltics, they had to pass through East Prussia,where the Poles were busy with expelling the last Germans .
Austria was an exception,but,as the Soviets left Austria without war in 1955,why should allied soldiers die to force the Soviets to leave Austria in 1945 ?
And, which allies ?It is out of the question that the French would,after Oradour and the other German atrocities, fight and die to expel the Soviets from Austria .