Resistance - Page 2




 
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February 18th, 2016  
JOC
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Millions may be a bit of an exaggeration don't you think?
Certainly thousands, probably even 10s of thousands but millions probably not.

I think these days we have a duty to put accuracy over emotion when making statements like this as the standard of investigation in todays students will no doubt lead to a report of millions of people being burnt alive in a barn during WW2.

I do not believe we should ever downplay the atrocities committed by Nazi Germany but at the same time lets not forget that we also committed the similar crimes, shooting Japanese sailors in the water and demolishing towns in Germany that showed any sign of resistance for example and lets face it had there been a German or Japanese resistance after the war I doubt we would have operated much different.

We have the benefit of being the victors to justify our actions but that does not mean we were all that much better.

More than 209 cities and towns (out of 270 total) and 9,000 villages were destroyed many for reprisal due to partisan activity.

7.1 million Soviet victims were murdered directly as a result of the Nazi's many for reprisals from partisan activity.

Ref: Vadim Erlikman

Note: The crimes committed by the allies pale when compared to the horrors committed by the 3rd Reich.
February 18th, 2016  
MontyB
 
 
So your contention is that to be the murderer of 100 people is better than 1000?

A crime is a crime it doesn't matter who commits it only who is around at the end to justify it, had the war gone the other way I am sure our history books would have had different hero's and villains.

As for 7.1 million Soviet victims, my understanding is that there are several counts and all of them different, varying between 4 million and 14 million these numbers are of all deaths from both at German hands and by Stalins team and include forced labour camp deaths which can not be considered "reprisal" related deaths.

For Example
Deaths caused by the result of direct, intentional actions of violence 7,420,379
Deaths of forced laborers in Germany 2,164,313
Deaths due to famine and disease in the occupied regions 4,100,000
Total 13,684,692

Source:
Russian Academy of Science

Further examples would be the siege of Lenningrad where close on 1 million civilians died of starvation, disease or direct fire but that again is not related to reprisals.

As you can see the numbers vary wildly but in all cases the numbers include both enemy and friendly killings and the murder of Jewish populations which again do not fall into the reprisals category.

Also was the number of towns destroyed all German action or does it include Stalins scorched earth policy as well?
February 18th, 2016  
JOC
 
 
NoI was talking only about Soviet losses at the hands of the Germans, nothing todo with Stalin. I thought this was made clear in the post as indicted that mostwere reprisal in nature.

Thecruelty of General Commissars such as Adolf Footman in the Ukraine and WilhelmKube in Belorussia was notoriously legendary. They openly boasted about thedestruction of towns and villages in reprisals at even the slightest sign ofpartisan activity. Berating their officers if any of the inhabitants survived thereprisals (slipped true the net).

TotalSoviet civilian deaths at the hands of the Germans only at least ~15 millionincluding several million Jews. As high as 19 million according to Gorbachev.

Stalinin order to gain the backing of own people greatly toned down the murdering ofown people during the war. Opening up the churches and mosques, reducing thepower of the political commissar's, etc. The people soon forget about theterrors of Stalin and but their sights on the new oppressors Germany, just asStalin planned.


Orat least until the ultimate victory was in sight in late 44 he began to takerevenge against the peoples he saw as collective enemies: Chechens, Tartars,Cossacks, etc.
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February 18th, 2016  
I3BrigPvSk
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOC
NoI was talking only about Soviet losses at the hands of the Germans, nothing todo with Stalin. I thought this was made clear in the post as indicted that mostwere reprisal in nature.

Thecruelty of General Commissars such as Adolf Footman in the Ukraine and WilhelmKube in Belorussia was notoriously legendary. They openly boasted about thedestruction of towns and villages in reprisals at even the slightest sign ofpartisan activity. Berating their officers if any of the inhabitants survived thereprisals (slipped true the net).

TotalSoviet civilian deaths at the hands of the Germans only at least ~15 millionincluding several million Jews. As high as 19 million according to Gorbachev.

Stalinin order to gain the backing of own people greatly toned down the murdering ofown people during the war. Opening up the churches and mosques, reducing thepower of the political commissar's, etc. The people soon forget about theterrors of Stalin and but their sights on the new oppressors Germany, just asStalin planned.


Orat least until the ultimate victory was in sight in late 44 he began to takerevenge against the peoples he saw as collective enemies: Chechens, Tartars,Cossacks, etc.
Not to mention Stalin's perception of Russian PoW, they were all traitors. Those volunteering to fight on the German side were punished badly after the war. Stalin treated the Balts pretty bad after the Soviets recapturing the Baltic states. Some Balts viewed the Germans as liberators after being occupied by the Russians.
February 18th, 2016  
JOC
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by I3BrigPvSk
Not to mention Stalin's perception of Russian PoW, they were all traitors. Those volunteering to fight on the German side were punished badly after the war. Stalin treated the Balts pretty bad after the Soviets recapturing the Baltic states. Some Balts viewed the Germans as liberators after being occupied by the Russians.


But remember Stalin wisely waited to near wars end to begin these large scale persecutions. In all likelihood the Crimean Tartars and Chechens got the worse of it over 1/2 the populations of these areas was killed or died as result of the deportations.


Many of the Soviet POW's that were fortunate enough to have survived German captivity "3.5 million out of ~ 5 million didn't" were imprisoned and sent to be reeducated, since Stalin considered them to have polluted minds for having been in contact with the enemy.


Of the Russians that deserted to fight for Germany few were trusted with front line service roles. A major exception was the Don Cossacks. Many most of these Cossacks that fought for Germany were executed outright by the NKVD at wars end.
February 18th, 2016  
I3BrigPvSk
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOC
But remember Stalin wisely waited to near wars end to begin these large scale persecutions. In all likelihood the Crimean Tartars and Chechens got the worse of it over 1/2 the populations of these areas was killed or died as result of the deportations.


Many of the Soviet POW's that were fortunate enough to have survived German captivity "3.5 million out of ~ 5 million didn't" were imprisoned and sent to be reeducated, since Stalin considered them to have polluted minds for having been in contact with the enemy.


Of the Russians that deserted to fight for Germany few were trusted with front line service roles. A major exception was the Don Cossacks. Many most of these Cossacks that fought for Germany were executed outright by the NKVD at wars end.
The Don Cossacks, were they members of the Vlasov army? How shall we perceive those men who volunteered to fight with the Germans? One approach can be as traitors and they were traitors, although, they might have done that to survive the PoW camps and the ensuing starvation
February 18th, 2016  
JOC
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by I3BrigPvSk
The Don Cossacks, were they members of the Vlasov army? How shall we perceive those men who volunteered to fight with the Germans? One approach can be as traitors and they were traitors, although, they might have done that to survive the PoW camps and the ensuing starvation
I don't know who Vlasov was? But here a line on the famous betrayal of the Cossacks.


http://thegreateststorynevertold.tv/...-the-cossacks/
February 18th, 2016  
I3BrigPvSk
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOC
I don't know who Vlasov was? But here a line on the famous betrayal of the Cossacks.


http://thegreateststorynevertold.tv/...-the-cossacks/
General Vlasov was a Soviet General captured by the Germans and he turned against his country. He created the Russian liberation army and it consisted of Russian PoWs, it went south for him and his fellow soldiers after the German surrender.
 


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