Questions about the Yom Kippur War-1973 - Page 2




 
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August 23rd, 2012  
ScarabVenom
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
The destruction of SAM batteries were only front line ones. About 1000 tanks were destroyed out of an initial inventory of about 1700. I don't know how many or if some were replaced by the Russians. They also lost about half of their initial inventory of planes.

General Shazly's plan was very good for defense but had weak points for offence. As we know now, if you don't have air superiority an offensive action will be very difficult.

Israel's position at the end of the war was not optimal but I think a little better than Egypt's one.

No matter how we think of it one thing is for sure. Thanks to that war peace came upon that area up untill today. But we must not forget to thank the Russians and the US for enforcing it.

About your story of the 1948 war, I read the same thing (on the internet) but about the Yom Kippur war. I couldn't believe it but then again, why not? Sadat overuled his Generals several times (for the worse) if I'm not mistaken.
As far as I know when it comes to tanks, Egypt on the 14th of October lost 220 tanks but had way more than that. When it comes to later battles such as the Chinese Farm and those stuff, both sides suffered. For Aircraft, I doubt that's true either...Egypt started the war by 200 Aircrafts only according to Shazly and then by the end it became 500 according to Israel's minister of defence. I see the aircraft increasing not decreasing that's besides, the only air to air battle that I know of was the one on 14th of October over Mansoura.
Well..check this out. Shazly's plan was basically like this....he crosses the canal, destroys the Bar-Lev line and finally, build an impregnable defense line 12 kilometers inside the canal and just stop. Egypt couldn't get the entire Sinai by military force due to lack of weaponry. So, once Egypt builds the defense line and stops, they just watch Israel. Israel by the time and according to previous experiences with Egypt, used to fight quick wars. Just attack quickly and decisively and end the war. So, Egypt wanted to increase the duration of the war as long as possible. Why? Israel by the time used to have 20% of it's civilians as reserves. So, if the country is at state of war, 20% become reserves and get mobilized which severely damages civil life and consequently, Israel gets to falls by itself economically. So, Shazly's plan was just to defend himself east of the canal and just watch. That's why he didn't want to advance further and opposed Sadat for advancing forward away from the SAM umbrella and at the same time, that wasn't the plan. When it comes to the final situation well...we can't guess. The Third Army probably could have been destroyed, but it wasn't. The Israeli Army also could have been destroyed, but it wasn't. Yet, what really happened on the battlefield is this, fearing for the life of their soldiers, Israel had to withdraw from the gap and west of the canal towards the passes (40 kilometers away from Egyptian forces) while Egyptian forces didn't pull back at all from the East of the canal. But, they did limit their tanks. The Egyptian General and the one who wrote the quote above, now I got his name; El-Gammasy, did decrease the tanks but in return he added doubles and doubles more of long-range artillery to replace the decreased tanks. And that was the 14th of January the last day of the war on the battlefield according to both Israeli and Egyptian quotes. Coming to the last part, I have a problem understanding it, my apologies. You read the same thing about the Yom Kippur War? What thing? The British leaving and the king sent to exile? The very last event which is directly a result of the Yom Kippur War was the assassination of President Sadat who's basically the very last victim of the 1973 war. Sadat was a little more of a political mind but during the war he has proven himself to be incompetent as a military general. First, the Crossing of The Suez by Egypt, this plan was made entirely by General El-Shazly. Then, advancing further on 14th of October....that was Sadat. All his generals agreed that this is suicide but, he was stubborn. He believed that if he got the passes, it would make his position during the negotiations much stronger. (shoving politics on the battlefield) Then after the failed attack, Shazly made a plan to eliminate the Israeli forces in the gap before it got bigger back when they only had 1 infantry brigade and 1 armored brigade by pulling 3 armored brigades from the East to eliminate the Israeli forces in the west. Sadat, opposed this saying "no retreat!" Shazly said "It's not a retreat, it's just a manuever." Sadat replied saying "If you mention this again, I'll take you to trial." Then the gap got bigger and bigger. Sadat committed a mistake during the war and when this mistake could be fixed, he refused. I'll tell you something, I don't know if you know or not, when Egypt and Israel were going for peace, Colonel Ghaddafi of Libya attacked Egypt and there was a Libyan-Egyptian War in 1977.
August 25th, 2012  
I3BrigPvSk
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarabVenom
As far as I know when it comes to tanks, Egypt on the 14th of October lost 220 tanks but had way more than that. When it comes to later battles such as the Chinese Farm and those stuff, both sides suffered. For Aircraft, I doubt that's true either...Egypt started the war by 200 Aircrafts only according to Shazly and then by the end it became 500 according to Israel's minister of defence. I see the aircraft increasing not decreasing that's besides, the only air to air battle that I know of was the one on 14th of October over Mansoura.
Well..check this out. Shazly's plan was basically like this....he crosses the canal, destroys the Bar-Lev line and finally, build an impregnable defense line 12 kilometers inside the canal and just stop. Egypt couldn't get the entire Sinai by military force due to lack of weaponry. So, once Egypt builds the defense line and stops, they just watch Israel. Israel by the time and according to previous experiences with Egypt, used to fight quick wars. Just attack quickly and decisively and end the war. So, Egypt wanted to increase the duration of the war as long as possible. Why? Israel by the time used to have 20% of it's civilians as reserves. So, if the country is at state of war, 20% become reserves and get mobilized which severely damages civil life and consequently, Israel gets to falls by itself economically. So, Shazly's plan was just to defend himself east of the canal and just watch. That's why he didn't want to advance further and opposed Sadat for advancing forward away from the SAM umbrella and at the same time, that wasn't the plan. When it comes to the final situation well...we can't guess. The Third Army probably could have been destroyed, but it wasn't. The Israeli Army also could have been destroyed, but it wasn't. Yet, what really happened on the battlefield is this, fearing for the life of their soldiers, Israel had to withdraw from the gap and west of the canal towards the passes (40 kilometers away from Egyptian forces) while Egyptian forces didn't pull back at all from the East of the canal. But, they did limit their tanks. The Egyptian General and the one who wrote the quote above, now I got his name; El-Gammasy, did decrease the tanks but in return he added doubles and doubles more of long-range artillery to replace the decreased tanks. And that was the 14th of January the last day of the war on the battlefield according to both Israeli and Egyptian quotes. Coming to the last part, I have a problem understanding it, my apologies. You read the same thing about the Yom Kippur War? What thing? The British leaving and the king sent to exile? The very last event which is directly a result of the Yom Kippur War was the assassination of President Sadat who's basically the very last victim of the 1973 war. Sadat was a little more of a political mind but during the war he has proven himself to be incompetent as a military general. First, the Crossing of The Suez by Egypt, this plan was made entirely by General El-Shazly. Then, advancing further on 14th of October....that was Sadat. All his generals agreed that this is suicide but, he was stubborn. He believed that if he got the passes, it would make his position during the negotiations much stronger. (shoving politics on the battlefield) Then after the failed attack, Shazly made a plan to eliminate the Israeli forces in the gap before it got bigger back when they only had 1 infantry brigade and 1 armored brigade by pulling 3 armored brigades from the East to eliminate the Israeli forces in the west. Sadat, opposed this saying "no retreat!" Shazly said "It's not a retreat, it's just a manuever." Sadat replied saying "If you mention this again, I'll take you to trial." Then the gap got bigger and bigger. Sadat committed a mistake during the war and when this mistake could be fixed, he refused. I'll tell you something, I don't know if you know or not, when Egypt and Israel were going for peace, Colonel Ghaddafi of Libya attacked Egypt and there was a Libyan-Egyptian War in 1977.
I know about the Libyan-Egyptian war, when Israel guaranteed they will not do anything meanwhile the Egyptian army was busy with the Libyans, Sadat and Begin started to trust each other and that is very important for any peace process
August 25th, 2012  
ScarabVenom
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by I3BrigPvSk
I know about the Libyan-Egyptian war, when Israel guaranteed they will not do anything meanwhile the Egyptian army was busy with the Libyans, Sadat and Begin started to trust each other and that is very important for any peace process
Hmmm...I honestly don't know about Israel during the Libyan-Egyptian war.What I know is - I could be wrong- that when Libya attacked Sadat told the UN that he doesn't want to be busy with the Libyans then he finds Israel attacking from the other side. Then the UN told Israel not to attack and to respect the agreement between it and Egypt. Then, Israel didn't do anything during the Libyan-Egyptian War.
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August 25th, 2012  
I3BrigPvSk
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarabVenom
Hmmm...I honestly don't know about Israel during the Libyan-Egyptian war.What I know is - I could be wrong- that when Libya attacked Sadat told the UN that he doesn't want to be busy with the Libyans then he finds Israel attacking from the other side. Then the UN told Israel not to attack and to respect the agreement between it and Egypt. Then, Israel didn't do anything during the Libyan-Egyptian War.
That is when the Romanian dictator contributed to the establishment of communication between Begin and Sadat. They got the Peace Prize for it later
August 25th, 2012  
ScarabVenom
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by I3BrigPvSk
That is when the Romanian dictator contributed to the establishment of communication between Begin and Sadat. They got the Peace Prize for it later
Hmm..it's good to know. Although, honestly I find this peace treaty kind of humiliating for the Egyptians. I mean, don't get me wrong. I support peace world-wide but that specific peace treaty says that Egypt has to ask Israel for permission if they want to station some extra forces in the Sinai. So, the way I look at it....Egyptian land with the Egyptian flag flying on it but, they can't get to do what they want without permission. Just asking for permission to do something on your own land is quite annoying to be honest.
August 25th, 2012  
I3BrigPvSk
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarabVenom
Hmm..it's good to know. Although, honestly I find this peace treaty kind of humiliating for the Egyptians. I mean, don't get me wrong. I support peace world-wide but that specific peace treaty says that Egypt has to ask Israel for permission if they want to station some extra forces in the Sinai. So, the way I look at it....Egyptian land with the Egyptian flag flying on it but, they can't get to do what they want without permission. Just asking for permission to do something on your own land is quite annoying to be honest.
That was a part of the agreement. Egypt was and still isn't allowed to have any major military forces in the Sinai Peninsula. What is lesser known about the Camp David Treaty is, it had a Palestinian part, but when Arafat didn't attend to the Camp David, they did a huge mistake. On the other hand, the Israelis can deploy forces to the south, but Egypt can't
August 25th, 2012  
ScarabVenom
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by I3BrigPvSk
That was a part of the agreement. Egypt was and still isn't allowed to have any major military forces in the Sinai Peninsula. What is lesser known about the Camp David Treaty is, it had a Palestinian part, but when Arafat didn't attend to the Camp David, they did a huge mistake. On the other hand, the Israelis can deploy forces to the south, but Egypt can't
Yeah, that's why this agreement is quite humiliating for Egypt. I also do know about that part something that said a Palestinian state in 5 years or something. I wonder why Arafat didn't attend Camp David, though. I mean...he could have established a Palestinian state. Probably, he thought he might take the entire land through resistance? Like eliminate Israel and just make it Palestine, the whole strip? This area is already too damn small for two states, I would say. Yeah, that's why I do agree with the Camp David agreement to be revised. If Egypt gets it's full rights over the Sinai and peace with Israel remains, I wonder what could be even more amazing.
August 27th, 2012  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarabVenom
Yeah, that's why this agreement is quite humiliating for Egypt. I also do know about that part something that said a Palestinian state in 5 years or something. I wonder why Arafat didn't attend Camp David, though. I mean...he could have established a Palestinian state. Probably, he thought he might take the entire land through resistance? Like eliminate Israel and just make it Palestine, the whole strip? This area is already too damn small for two states, I would say. Yeah, that's why I do agree with the Camp David agreement to be revised. If Egypt gets it's full rights over the Sinai and peace with Israel remains, I wonder what could be even more amazing.
I find it not humiliating for the Egyptians, on the contrary, it's courageous. By doing so they understand Israel's fears. The biggest fear for Israel is security. That is why they still have the (strategic) Golan Heights and why they are still in parts of the West Bank. Israel can only do away with that fear militarily, the Arabs can do it diplomatically but up until today don't, except for Egypt and Jordan.

About the Yom Kippur war. Egypt was fighting, together with foreign troops, against part of the Israeli forces, not all of it.

The EAF lost some 220 of its 650 aircraft during this conflict, including most of its MiG-21 and Il-28 fighters and bombers. - (Al Quwwat al Jawwiya Ilmisriya)
August 28th, 2012  
ScarabVenom
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
I find it not humiliating for the Egyptians, on the contrary, it's courageous. By doing so they understand Israel's fears. The biggest fear for Israel is security. That is why they still have the (strategic) Golan Heights and why they are still in parts of the West Bank. Israel can only do away with that fear militarily, the Arabs can do it diplomatically but up until today don't, except for Egypt and Jordan.

About the Yom Kippur war. Egypt was fighting, together with foreign troops, against part of the Israeli forces, not all of it.

The EAF lost some 220 of its 650 aircraft during this conflict, including most of its MiG-21 and Il-28 fighters and bombers. - (Al Quwwat al Jawwiya Ilmisriya)
ًWell...I don't understand how this is not humiliating. If this is Egyptian territory controlled by Egypt then they should do whatever they want not ask for permission if they want to deploy troops to the Sinai even if it's not for any military operation.

Hmm...I know about the foreign troops. But, because they're there, means they were actually there? We call those foreign troops "Cafe Generals" because they just wear their military uniform and that's it. I'll tell you those foreign troops...First, speaking of the EAF. You might have heard of the Korean pilots. The Korean pilots during the 1973 war did not engage into any air battles and didn't lose a single plane because their mission was the defense of Cairo which was not at risk anytime during the war so, they didn't engage into anything. They were just there.

Algeria: 1 squadron of Sukhoi Su-7 arrived on 10th of October and had a very bad technical situation and didn't engage into any battles. 1 squadron of Mig-17s arrived on 11th of October and didn't engage into any battles. 1 squadron Mig-21 arrived on 12th of October and didn't engage into any battles. 1 armored brigade arrived on the 13th of October and was a part of the 4th armored division and only engaged in firing artillery during the period between 28th of October and the 14th of January and was a part of the "Gap Liquidation Plan" which didn't happen due to the events.

Libya: 1 squadron of Mirage-5 but their pilots were very poorly trained and never engaged into any battles because Libya was scared for their lives. 1 armored brigade arrived at the end of the war and was going to be a part of the "Gap Liquidation Plan"
Iraq:1 squadron of Hawker Hunter planes arrived before the war and engaged into the first air strike on the 6th of October and their pilots made an acceptable performance.

Morocco and Sudan each one of them sent 1 armored brigade arrived by the end of the war and were a part of the final plan. The Moroccan one had very minor exchange fire battles during the last period from 28th of October to 14th of January.

Kuwait: 1 Kuwaiti battalion arrived before the war and were stationed behind the front-lines and when the gap happened, they retreated without fighting.

Tunisia: 1 Tunisian battalion arrived by the end of the war and were a part of the final plan.

They didn't engage into major battles but, their existence did help in organizing and forming a major force to liquidate the gap. I thought I'd be saying this to Arabs claiming stuff never thought I'd have to say it to an IDF supporter. Maybe Egypt was fighting only a part of the Israeli army but definitely all the Israeli army on the Egyptian front. In which we would like to point out that if it wasn't for Operation Nickel Grass it wasn't going to be there. I don't know too much about the Air Force as I said before but, I do know that by the end of the war Egypt had a total of 500 operational aircraft according to Israeli source. Pointing out that your website when I looked at it I thought it's the official EAF website. But, it's just a website belonging to an organization that's teaching about F-16s their information could be true but also could be false. I'm not saying Egypt didn't lose battles; no, Egypt did lose battles. But, from a military and strategic point of view, they did win the war.
August 29th, 2012  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarabVenom
ًWell...I don't understand how this is not humiliating. If this is Egyptian territory controlled by Egypt then they should do whatever they want not ask for permission if they want to deploy troops to the Sinai even if it's not for any military operation.

Hmm...I know about the foreign troops. But, because they're there, means they were actually there? We call those foreign troops "Cafe Generals" because they just wear their military uniform and that's it. I'll tell you those foreign troops...First, speaking of the EAF. You might have heard of the Korean pilots. The Korean pilots during the 1973 war did not engage into any air battles and didn't lose a single plane because their mission was the defense of Cairo which was not at risk anytime during the war so, they didn't engage into anything. They were just there.

Algeria: 1 squadron of Sukhoi Su-7 arrived on 10th of October and had a very bad technical situation and didn't engage into any battles. 1 squadron of Mig-17s arrived on 11th of October and didn't engage into any battles. 1 squadron Mig-21 arrived on 12th of October and didn't engage into any battles. 1 armored brigade arrived on the 13th of October and was a part of the 4th armored division and only engaged in firing artillery during the period between 28th of October and the 14th of January and was a part of the "Gap Liquidation Plan" which didn't happen due to the events.

Libya: 1 squadron of Mirage-5 but their pilots were very poorly trained and never engaged into any battles because Libya was scared for their lives. 1 armored brigade arrived at the end of the war and was going to be a part of the "Gap Liquidation Plan"
Iraq:1 squadron of Hawker Hunter planes arrived before the war and engaged into the first air strike on the 6th of October and their pilots made an acceptable performance.

Morocco and Sudan each one of them sent 1 armored brigade arrived by the end of the war and were a part of the final plan. The Moroccan one had very minor exchange fire battles during the last period from 28th of October to 14th of January.

Kuwait: 1 Kuwaiti battalion arrived before the war and were stationed behind the front-lines and when the gap happened, they retreated without fighting.

Tunisia: 1 Tunisian battalion arrived by the end of the war and were a part of the final plan.

They didn't engage into major battles but, their existence did help in organizing and forming a major force to liquidate the gap. I thought I'd be saying this to Arabs claiming stuff never thought I'd have to say it to an IDF supporter. Maybe Egypt was fighting only a part of the Israeli army but definitely all the Israeli army on the Egyptian front. In which we would like to point out that if it wasn't for Operation Nickel Grass it wasn't going to be there. I don't know too much about the Air Force as I said before but, I do know that by the end of the war Egypt had a total of 500 operational aircraft according to Israeli source. Pointing out that your website when I looked at it I thought it's the official EAF website. But, it's just a website belonging to an organization that's teaching about F-16s their information could be true but also could be false. I'm not saying Egypt didn't lose battles; no, Egypt did lose battles. But, from a military and strategic point of view, they did win the war.
You win a war if you accomplish your goals. The goal of the Egyptian forces was (according to you) to recapture lost land. At the end of the war only a small piece was recaptured but also lost a small piece of Egypt. Peace negotiations gave back the lost territories. It was a give and take thing from both sides.

We can argue about that indefinitely but fact is peace still exists in that part of the ME. A major accomplishment.
 


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