Polish army (lots of pictures) - Page 3




 
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July 19th, 2009  
Panzercracker
 

Topic: The war that wasnt.


I wanted to post a section about the battles of Bzura and the siege of Warsaw but its a lot of pictures and work and i'm a bit tired so instead i'll post some of the Polish prototypes.

In 1939 Polish army was in the middle of a massive reorganisation and modernisation, new artillery, new airplanes, new tanks, cavalry brigadescbeing transformed into motorised units.

Here's pictures and plans of much of the equipment that was about to enter production or development (or was already present in small quantities) by September.


Polish medium 20-28 ton tank engineering sketches (the vehicle was to be produced in 1940.





Heavier 28 ton variant.




4TP reconassaince tank.



Medium tank destroyer project.



An advanced cruiser tank 10TP between 1 and 3 prototypes took part in September battle, the initial purchases called for 64 these tanks to serve in cavalry brigades with another 64 to be purchased within months.


14TP a fast tank similar to the British crusader (there existed a prototype but i dont think there's pictures available). Initial purchases were supposed to be at 50 machines.



24TP - armed with a 75mm and a 37mm guns


More of 10tp cruiser tank.
July 19th, 2009  
Panzercracker
 


New towed 90mm mortar.


New recon vehicle for the motorised recon companies.


Modern armored scout car.





155mm howitzer of the new type.


Heavy artillery tractor.
July 19th, 2009  
Panzercracker
 

Topic: Logistics and AA equpment.




A small tractor for engineer units.



A new medium issue, all terrain truck.



A towed AA gun ( i'm not sure whether the picture is recent and done to surviving prototype or more likely an old black and white picture colored later).
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July 19th, 2009  
tomtom22
 
 
Great thread, Panzercracker!
July 19th, 2009  
Doppleganger
 
 
Very interesting thread Panzercracker. I'm guessing you're an ethnic Pole in some way as you seem quite proud of the Polish armed forces in WW2.

I think it's safe to say that the Poles inflicted significant casualties on the 1939 Wehrmacht. As you've said, Fall Weiss wasn't Blitzkrieg but classic Vernichtungsgedanke as used by the Germans in WW1 and further back. The German Panzerwaffe was in a training mode for this campaign and it was traditional artillery that caused the most damage, rather than panzers or Stukas. Many of the Panzer formations were equipped with tanks that were never intended to be in front-line combat, like Panzer Is and IIs.

As bravely as the Polish Army fought, it was always doomed from day one. It was isolated, both politically and military, and it was a matter to time before they sucummbed. What is, with hindsight, astonishing is that the French Army did not make a serious effort to invade Germany when the Wehrmacht was in Poland. There was Operation Saar of course but that was a fiasco. The French, so proud of their military tradition, should be utterly ashamed of their lack of fight and ambition. Both France and the UK effectively stabbed Poland in the back but France was the worst offender.
July 19th, 2009  
Panzercracker
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger
Very interesting thread Panzercracker. I'm guessing you're an ethnic Pole in some way as you seem quite proud of the Polish armed forces in WW2.
I'm not mythologizing, Polish military has been ineptly commanded, did not have the equipment on the level of the Western militaries yet managed to cause such severe losses that Germany had to postpone its invasion of France, thats part of the reason why its skipped in history books.

The West claimed Poland is weak and indefensible, in the light of these claims they decided to abandon Poland and the Polish force went on to perform orders of magnitude better then the Franco-British army combined.

And yes i'm a Polish-American (i hold a dual citizenship) living in Poland.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger
I think it's safe to say that the Poles inflicted significant casualties on the 1939 Wehrmacht.
To compare it on the fly, Germany lost over 1000 tanks and armored vehicles in Poland and 750~ against France, UK and the Low Countries.

320~ planes destroyed or damaged in the West against over 400 destroyed or damaged in Poland.

France and Britain did cause more personnel casualities (almost 10.000 more) but then again there is significant controversy about how many Germans exactly died in Poland, Hitler claimed 10.000, OKW claimed 17.000 and some Polish sources claim 25.000.

In the end Germany lost 30% of its armor, airforce, approximately 15% of its artillery, expanded 83% of its stocks of ammunition and lost 28% of its motorised vehicles, the material losses were in all cases higher than in France.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger
As bravely as the Polish Army fought, it was always doomed from day one. It was isolated, both politically and military, and it was a matter to time before they sucummbed. What is, with hindsight, astonishing is that the French Army did not make a serious effort to invade Germany when the Wehrmacht was in Poland. There was Operation Saar of course but that was a fiasco. The French, so proud of their military tradition, should be utterly ashamed of their lack of fight and ambition. Both France and the UK effectively stabbed Poland in the back but France was the worst offender.
Poland was absolutey doomed however without Russia the battle would likely be prolonged into another month or two causing even more casualities possibly causing even greater postponement of invasion of France.

By September 17th Poland still had 25 divisions not engaged and occupied defensible positions but we'll get to that.

As for the West.

UK promised help without intention of giving it simply becaused it feared Poland would agree to Hitlers demands and become its satelite (and one milion highly motivated troops is nothing to spit at).

British politicians had absolutely no intention of helping Poland, they wanted it destroyed rather than it joining Hitler but thats politics for you.

France was a different case, Gamelin was as incompetent a commander as he was an ally, he claimed Poland would collapse instantly, when it did not it was safer to look away rather than admit that his own defeatism caused a fall of a valuable ally.
July 19th, 2009  
Titanium
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panzercracker
Poland relied on its army to slow down the German advance, normally Polish plans called for abandoning the borders and concentrating troops deeper in the country on the river lines.

However France and England signed a treaty with Poland which specifically said that upon the start of hostilities both countries will engage Germany with all available forces, the entire Polish defense plan of 1939 was built around expectation that France would invade Germany which it of course did not.

Poland had no chance of winning either way but the war could and would draw out into several months if not for Russian invasion on the 17th (we'll get to that).

If on the other side France did attack, Germany could not afford to shift forces, by 17th of September only 65% of its armored vehicles were operational and Poland retained over half a milion troops, shorter defense lines and the so called "Romanian Bridgehead".

The bridghead was an area between rivers Dniestr and Stryj, home to approximately 50% of all Polish supply and ammunition dumps, rough and unsuitable for German tanks, concentrated there were approximately 12 Polish divisions with another 8 en route and other surviving units for a grand total of more than half a milion.

The bridghead was going to be supplied from the Romanian port of Constanta (50 Renault medium tanks and 48 hurricane fighters were already en route to Polish forces fortifying there).

By 17th September Germany took over nearly half of Poland but could move no further, stopped under Warsaw the Wehrmacht was facing stationary warfare and winter, incapable of encircling an enemy who operated on such a tight front.
Many thanks for the explanation!
July 19th, 2009  
Panzercracker
 
Polish armored trains, Germany considered this kind of weapon obsolete, after they lost an entire motorised batalion in an encounter with one of these beasts they changed their mind and built their own versions after 1939.




Armed with multiple 75mm and 50mm cannons, a dazzling array of light and heavy machineguns and carrying a company of assault troops (apart from its crew) Polish armored trains were able to stop entire divisions dead in their tracks.

September 1939 "The Courageous" armored train.




Light armored train near Warsaw, September 1939.

75mm turrets.

Damaged armored train in Gdańsk, 90mm turret.

April 15th, 2010  
Kuuktas
 
 
You have absolutely right! I waiting for more!
April 16th, 2010  
Excalibur
 
 
Does someone heard of Battle of Wizna ... this battle is also called Polish Thermopylae?

720 Poles fought three days against 42 200 Germans

Stats:

Polish forces
720 men (20 officers)
Six 76 mm guns
42 MGs machine guns
2 URs antitank rifles
German forces
42,200 men
350 tanks
657 mortars, guns and grenade launchers
Aircraft support


Results: +/- 40 Poles survived.

Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoQj8GGHNxU
 


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