Napalm the bocage! - Page 14




 
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December 23rd, 2011  
Der Alte
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seehund
Opa.
I would like to ask you a question. Something I've often thought about but never had the courage to ask. I hope that you don´t find it offensive.

What did you know about jew persecution, extermination and concentration camps and what was your position on this?
I knew very well that the Jews were persecuted; after all it was no big secret since it took place in full public.

I also knew about the concentration camps, but back then they were described as work camps. That Jews were worked to death, I was well aware of. But organized mass murder the size as it turned out to be I did not believe then. I had heard stories and rumors about what was happening in the east and about how many Jews they killed each day. I remember we talked with some Waffen SS men who had come home from the eastern front, and they talked with pride about how many Jews and bandits they had killed in one day (I can not remember how many) but I thought they were full of ****. You can not kill so many people at the same time, I thought back then - but it could be done, it is known now.

So yes, I knew that we killed Jews. But that the Holocaust was so extensive I could not imagine back then.

My opinion?
They were enemies of the state, enemies of the people and “Untermenschen” (sub-human) it was the lie that deliberately was encoded into my head throughout my childhood - how could I believe otherwise. I will not deny my responsibility in what happened. I was part of the system and hence also responsible.

It was inexcusable what we did back then and this responsibility I will always carry on my shoulders. Today I try to treat all people as equals but the feeling of guilt is still there.
December 23rd, 2011  
Seehund
 
Thank you for your honesty.
When I think about it, then you could not see it any other way I guess.
You were also a victim of that time.
December 23rd, 2011  
Der Alte
 
A victim, perhaps. But also a willing victim.

I have often wondered if I would have gassed and burned Jews if I had ended up in such a place. The more I reflect, the more sure I am on the answer. The shocking truth is yes.
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December 23rd, 2011  
BritinBritain
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Alte
A victim, perhaps. But also a willing victim.

I have often wondered if I would have gassed and burned Jews if I had ended up in such a place. The more I reflect, the more sure I am on the answer. The shocking truth is yes.
My two cents worth.

I have had a similar discussion over the years. I often heard from people “People knew what was going on, why didn't they speak out?”

I asked, “Would you in a despotic totalitarian state, be the first to disobey such orders or complain knowing full well you and your family ended up in a concentration camp?”

No answer.

Why didn't the Pope complain, or the various Western Governments? I also heard that train loads of Jewish prisoners destined for concentration camps were shipped through Switzerland. Why didn't the Swiss impound the train and free the prisoners? Today there are still billions worth of Jewish gold in Swiss banks stolen during WW2, gold that the Swiss are not in a hurry to return to their rightful owners. If anyone should hang their heads in shame, it's the Swiss and the Catholic church by their assisting top NAZI's to escape.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...s/nazis/train/

So in all honesty Opa, in my opinion you didn't have a choice, you weren't a willing victim, you were a victim of circumstance and the state you were forced to follow.
December 23rd, 2011  
84RFK
 
 
What we often fail to aknowledge is the fact that concentration camps wasn't just a war-time phenomenon, in fact Dachau concentration camp was started in 1933 and contained mostly communists and criminals.
I suppose there was no distinct difference between communists and criminals in those days, or at least people was lead to believe that it wasn't.

Now, if we consider the concentration camp/labour camp system as well incorporated, the camp prisoners deemed criminal/enemy of the state, and the Jews declared criminal or enemies of the state halfway through that process.....would anyone raise an eyebrow if the Jews was sendt to concentration camps?

And if we face our own mirror reflection, can we say for sure that we are any better?
We all know what happened on Balkan during the end of the last century, the Serbian, Croat, and Bosnian people wasn't considered primitive and brutal savages prior to that...
There's an ongoing conflict in the Middle-East, and both sides claim that the other is trying to exterminate them, violation of human rights is standard procedure.
Guantanamo.....need I say more?
My country have a bleak history regarding the treatment of gypsies, travellers, and mentally deranged people, up into the late 1950's at least, and that was well beyond the point when we all knew what happened in the German concentration camps.
And still we kept on doing it.

Ladies and gentlemen, given the specific circumstances and a totally different setting than the one we live in, would we be any better than the nazi's?
December 23rd, 2011  
samneanderthal
 
This will sound extremely negative, but is it a worse crime to kill 65 million people in WW II or to allow 7 billion people to reproduce at will, so that the poorest, most ignorant people have billions of starving children?
December 23rd, 2011  
Yossarian
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by samneanderthal
This will sound extremely negative, but is it a worse crime to kill 65 million people in WW II or to allow 7 billion people to reproduce at will, so that the poorest, most ignorant people have billions of starving children?

Whole nother thread for a whole nother day.
December 23rd, 2011  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 84RFK
What we often fail to aknowledge is the fact that concentration camps wasn't just a war-time phenomenon, in fact Dachau concentration camp was started in 1933 and contained mostly communists and criminals.
I suppose there was no distinct difference between communists and criminals in those days, or at least people was lead to believe that it wasn't.

Now, if we consider the concentration camp/labour camp system as well incorporated, the camp prisoners deemed criminal/enemy of the state, and the Jews declared criminal or enemies of the state halfway through that process.....would anyone raise an eyebrow if the Jews was sendt to concentration camps?

And if we face our own mirror reflection, can we say for sure that we are any better?
We all know what happened on Balkan during the end of the last century, the Serbian, Croat, and Bosnian people wasn't considered primitive and brutal savages prior to that...
There's an ongoing conflict in the Middle-East, and both sides claim that the other is trying to exterminate them, violation of human rights is standard procedure.
Guantanamo.....need I say more?
My country have a bleak history regarding the treatment of gypsies, travellers, and mentally deranged people, up into the late 1950's at least, and that was well beyond the point when we all knew what happened in the German concentration camps.
And still we kept on doing it.

Ladies and gentlemen, given the specific circumstances and a totally different setting than the one we live in, would we be any better than the nazi's?
What this shows is that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely, personally I would like to think we would be better and had learnt from the past the sad reality is though that we haven't.

With regards to the holocaust specifically I don't believe Western nations have a shared responsibility in this, it is one German must carry pretty much alone but I do believe it is time they stopped apologising every 5 minutes for it and moved on, it is possible to acknowledge a wrong without letting it over ride a national identity.
December 23rd, 2011  
Yossarian
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
What this shows is that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely, personally I would like to think we would be better and had learnt from the past the sad reality is though that we haven't.

With regards to the holocaust specifically I don't believe Western nations have a shared responsibility in this, it is one German must carry pretty much alone but I do believe it is time they stopped apologising every 5 minutes for it and moved on, it is possible to acknowledge a wrong without letting it over ride a national identity.
What surprises me is that few fail to mention the some 30 million killed under Stalin's rule, many of them killed in failed agricultural experiments and famine before WW ll, or the past and on going mass murders over looked in 3rd world nations in Africa.

You can fight your biology, but you will always lose, people are creatures of habit, greed and lust for power will always wind their way into to human affairs because sadly I am begining to believe we are instinctivly driven to pursue such things.
December 23rd, 2011  
lljadw
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 84RFK
What we often fail to aknowledge is the fact that concentration camps wasn't just a war-time phenomenon, in fact Dachau concentration camp was started in 1933 and contained mostly communists and criminals.
I suppose there was no distinct difference between communists and criminals in those days, or at least people was lead to believe that it wasn't.

Now, if we consider the concentration camp/labour camp system as well incorporated, the camp prisoners deemed criminal/enemy of the state, and the Jews declared criminal or enemies of the state halfway through that process.....would anyone raise an eyebrow if the Jews was sendt to concentration camps?

And if we face our own mirror reflection, can we say for sure that we are any better?
We all know what happened on Balkan during the end of the last century, the Serbian, Croat, and Bosnian people wasn't considered primitive and brutal savages prior to that...
There's an ongoing conflict in the Middle-East, and both sides claim that the other is trying to exterminate them, violation of human rights is standard procedure.
Guantanamo.....need I say more?
My country have a bleak history regarding the treatment of gypsies, travellers, and mentally deranged people, up into the late 1950's at least, and that was well beyond the point when we all knew what happened in the German concentration camps.
And still we kept on doing it.

Ladies and gentlemen, given the specific circumstances and a totally different setting than the one we live in, would we be any better than the nazi's?
I strongly object to the mentioning of Guantanamo in a thread about concentration camps :at Guantanamo,nobody was beaten to death,nobody was tortured,nobody was murdered,etc.And,those who were at Guantanamo,mostlt deserved to be there .
 


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