Napalm the bocage! - Page 12




 
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December 22nd, 2011  
Seehund
 
Opa.
I would like to ask you a question. Something I've often thought about but never had the courage to ask. I hope that you donīt find it offensive.

What did you know about jew persecution, extermination and concentration camps and what was your position on this?
December 22nd, 2011  
Der Alte
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
You mentioned that you helped build the West German Army, the one thing I cannot understand is, if I remember correctly Germans have to carry out 18 months national service. With the cost of training a man, would it be cost effective, especially today with modern equipment.

There has been talk in the UK for years about bringing back National Service, one of the reasons it hasn't been brought back is the short term a man serves and the cost to train him.
Mandatory service is a very cost-efficient defence solution. Many European countries who have abandoned military service have problems recruiting. But there is no justification for mandatory service where no threat exists. Britain, for example, is not under any threat and there is no evidence that it will be in the near future. The army is capable of carrying out its role and the training of conscripts would only divert its time from more important matters.

The biggest benefit is the social one. It is a significant change from past experiences for young individuals; a shift in perspective that can help them see life differently, inspire them to work harder in the future, and foster a greater sense of purpose and responsibility to oneīs nation. Also it is a necessary means to ensure the defence forces maintain a close relationship to civil society in order to prevent a repeat of the way in which the Nazi party was able to manipulate professional soldiers in the 1930s.

When a person is drafted into the military they lose certain rights for a little while, but is that necessarily bad? No. If they have never had their basic rights taken from them they will never place as high a value on those rights, or on the sacrifice their ancestors made to give them those rights. It is a growing problem in America for people to take their rights for granted. Take peoples rights away temporarily and people start to value what they have more; and they start to value their country more.
If you see it that way, then it is for society very cost-efficient in the long run.

Thanks for the link to my "old home"
It brought many memories back.
December 22nd, 2011  
Der Alte
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
I think you will find that the idea came from watching one too many war movies and we all know that the universal WW2 German/Russian cure for everything in a war movie is to shoot it.

Yes, some have to portray the bad guys so the good guys can be heroes.

Many of the old WWII veterans were furious when the movie Inglorious Bastards premiered in Germany.
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December 22nd, 2011  
BritinBritain
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Alte
Mandatory service is a very cost-efficient defence solution. Many European countries who have abandoned military service have problems recruiting. But there is no justification for mandatory service where no threat exists. Britain, for example, is not under any threat and there is no evidence that it will be in the near future. The army is capable of carrying out its role and the training of conscripts would only divert its time from more important matters.

The biggest benefit is the social one. It is a significant change from past experiences for young individuals; a shift in perspective that can help them see life differently, inspire them to work harder in the future, and foster a greater sense of purpose and responsibility to oneīs nation. Also it is a necessary means to ensure the defence forces maintain a close relationship to civil society in order to prevent a repeat of the way in which the Nazi party was able to manipulate professional soldiers in the 1930s.

When a person is drafted into the military they lose certain rights for a little while, but is that necessarily bad? No. If they have never had their basic rights taken from them they will never place as high a value on those rights, or on the sacrifice their ancestors made to give them those rights. It is a growing problem in [/COLOR]America for people to take their rights for granted. Take peoples rights away temporarily and people start to value what they have more; and they start to value their country more.[/COLOR]
If you see it that way, then it is for society very cost-efficient in the long run.
Put that way, I understand why you say National Service is socially cost efficient.

My example was monetary as you probably guessed. For example, Britain's RAF National Servicemen serving in the Far East, such as Singapore and Hong Kong. After basic training, then trade training such as aero engine or airframe fitter, then the time spent at sea on a troop ship to theatre, then the time back to UK again, he would spend less then a year in theatre in his trade. In the regular RAF when I joined, certain trades if I remember correctly had a time limit put on them, for example an aero engine fitter couldn't serve for less then five years, a cook or storeman could serve three years. Today however, I have no idea how it works.

I agree with you totally that National Service is a good thing, it installs discipline and pride in oneself. I have spoken to many ex servicemen in UK and the vast majority stated that although they didn't like it, they wouldn't have missed it for the world. In my opinion the problem with much of today's youth in the UK can be put down to lack of discipline in the home, in school and in society in general, something that National Service would help address. However, too many do-gooders poke their noses in where they don't belong.

I enjoyed my service both in the RAF and the Territorial Army, I had a lot of good times


Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Alte
Thanks for the link to my "old home"
It brought many memories back.
It appears that the chap who owns the site is an ex POW.

As an 18 year old Officer when you were captured, I can fully understand why you were rude to British Officers, I've felt like running some of them over myself with a truck a few times.

I am doing a bit of a search to find out what British regiment you were facing when you were captured, I haven't found anything yet
December 22nd, 2011  
LeEnfield
 
 
I would argue that National Service is a good thing, and I will argue this point from being a former National Serviceman.
Now I had an apprenticeship with my employer and had been studying Electrical Engineering [City & Guilds] which is now classed as a degree. Some person in the Ministry of Labour had not processed my papers so I was called up a few weeks before my finial Exams. Now I contacted my MP who was at the time Harold McMillan and I was informed to sit the exams I would have to sign on in the Army for 11 Years, well you can guess what my reply was.
Now I was drafted into the Queens Own Royal West Kent Regiment, the training took 10 weeks to turn you into an infantry man, it now takes six months. Training was hard as they had a lot to do in those ten weeks and after that you could wind up in Places like Malaya, or the near east were there was plenty of trouble and if you had not learnt your lessons it could prove fatal to you.
Now there were men that were called up who were not right for life in the forces or even the boy scouts who would then top them selfs as they could not face it, so it did not do those any good.
After I had finished my training I did not like my posting so I put in for the Parachute Regiment as at the time you had to be a trained soldier before you could apply. I sailed through the P Course and wound up on the going on a world tour as the guest of the queen. I fought in several different countries, and we only got half a Regular Soldiers pay as we were not classed as proper soldiers, we were not allowed the same number of travel warrants as a Regular Soldier, yet alleged Barrack Room damages were charged at the same rate as a regular soldier. When attacks often went in the first one they chose to lead the attack were the National Servicemen as there would not be any pay out on them. In those days you had to be 21 to get married with out written permission from your parents, you could not sign an HP agreement as you were classed as a child, nor could you agree to have any kind of medical procedure even if you had smashed your self up. While waiting to invade one country we were not even allowed to write home for three months, so you soon lost the love of your life and that caused some lads to take silly risks.
Also after all of this many of the returning soldiers [National Service] found they could not readjust to the life they had before. Also when you got demobed you handed in your kit and you were out on the street with the remains of your last pay packet in your pocket, which was never very much and then you had start a new life on what you had in your pocket, there was not help to get you settled or to start again, yet they all got on with it and no ever give them a thought, except the pillocks who think it does you good.
Okay I had a lot laughs while I was in the Army and I made some life long friends, but I often wonder where and what I would have become if hadn't had to go in the Army.
December 22nd, 2011  
Del Boy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
No argument but I am used to seeing these discussions spiral out of control over the smallest of points.
Good. Allow me to reiterate my season's greeting to you and all on these boards: HAPPY CHRISTMAS.
December 22nd, 2011  
Der Alte
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
I am doing a bit of a search to find out what British regiment you were facing when you were captured, I haven't found anything yet
They were from the British 3rd Infantry Division. They had armored cars. I think it was a recce troop. I think I can remember the name Northumberland Fusiliers.
I am far from certain.It was a long time ago.
December 22nd, 2011  
Seehund
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeEnfield
I would argue that National Service is a good thing, and I will argue this point from being a former National Serviceman.
Now I had an apprenticeship with my employer and had been studying Electrical Engineering [City & Guilds] which is now classed as a degree. Some person in the Ministry of Labour had not processed my papers so I was called up a few weeks before my finial Exams. Now I contacted my MP who was at the time Harold McMillan and I was informed to sit the exams I would have to sign on in the Army for 11 Years, well you can guess what my reply was.
Now I was drafted into the Queens Own Royal West Kent Regiment, the training took 10 weeks to turn you into an infantry man, it now takes six months. Training was hard as they had a lot to do in those ten weeks and after that you could wind up in Places like Malaya, or the near east were there was plenty of trouble and if you had not learnt your lessons it could prove fatal to you.
Now there were men that were called up who were not right for life in the forces or even the boy scouts who would then top them selfs as they could not face it, so it did not do those any good.
After I had finished my training I did not like my posting so I put in for the Parachute Regiment as at the time you had to be a trained soldier before you could apply. I sailed through the P Course and wound up on the going on a world tour as the guest of the queen. I fought in several different countries, and we only got half a Regular Soldiers pay as we were not classed as proper soldiers, we were not allowed the same number of travel warrants as a Regular Soldier, yet alleged Barrack Room damages were charged at the same rate as a regular soldier. When attacks often went in the first one they chose to lead the attack were the National Servicemen as there would not be any pay out on them. In those days you had to be 21 to get married with out written permission from your parents, you could not sign an HP agreement as you were classed as a child, nor could you agree to have any kind of medical procedure even if you had smashed your self up. While waiting to invade one country we were not even allowed to write home for three months, so you soon lost the love of your life and that caused some lads to take silly risks.
Also after all of this many of the returning soldiers [National Service] found they could not readjust to the life they had before. Also when you got demobed you handed in your kit and you were out on the street with the remains of your last pay packet in your pocket, which was never very much and then you had start a new life on what you had in your pocket, there was not help to get you settled or to start again, yet they all got on with it and no ever give them a thought, except the pillocks who think it does you good.
Okay I had a lot laughs while I was in the Army and I made some life long friends, but I often wonder where and what I would have become if hadn't had to go in the Army.
With all due respect, it was then. The world has moved on.
This was also the case in the Danish army in the fifties.

Today Denmark has a national service that is up to date.
If are you taking a education you can postpone conscription
December 22nd, 2011  
samneanderthal
 
Hallo Opa, waren Sie an der Ostfront?
December 22nd, 2011  
BritinBritain
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Alte
They were from the British 3rd Infantry Division. They had armored cars. I think it was a recce troop. I think I can remember the name Northumberland Fusiliers.
I am far from certain.It was a long time ago.
Ah thank you Opa.

Le, Before one of my uncles was called up for National Service, he signed on as a regular for two years with the Royal Welch rather then wait to get called up and obviously got better pay.
 


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