Israel rightfully own the West Bank . - Page 28




 
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May 28th, 2014  
JOC
 
 

Topic: West Bank


Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Such is the childish stupidity of your argument that I see you have completely ignored the fact that the Palestinians should not have to negotiate with the Israelis at all, as they, (the Israelis) have no legal or moral reason for occupying Palestine in the first place. No one asked the Dutch, Belgians and French etc., to negotiate with the Nazis who overran their countries during WWII.

All of Israels concerns are bought about by their own actions. They elected to illegally occupy the land of another people, now they whine about the fact that those legitimate owners are resisting this occupation.

If as you claim you have read my posts you would have seen some of the International Laws pertaining to this matter.
I can sympathize with any people that are repressed. However lets be realistic. Right, Wrong or indifferent do you think the Palestinians will ever get a homeland without negotiations? I'm not saying they should have to negotiate, I'm saying how far do you think they will get without negotiations? Do you honestly believe Israel is about to just vacate "regardless of international law"? One can talk in such euphemisms, but are they realistic?

BTW you overlooked every point I made about the heavy handed treatment suffered by the Palestinians because of the IDF?

Should we go back to the days of when Palestine was a colony of the Turks. They just killed or imprisoned any source of unrest (I'm being factious).

Again you have resorted to name calling. Must I continue to remind you that you undermine your argument with this uncultured behavior and you skirted my %99 question a few post ago?
May 28th, 2014  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOC
Right, Wrong or indifferent in reality do you think they will ever get a homeland without negotiation? Do you honestly believe Israel is about to just vacate regardless of international law? One can talk in ideal euphemisms. You also overlook every point I have made about the injustices suffered by the Palestinians?

Again you have resorted to name calling. Must I continue to remind you that you undermine your argument with this uncultured behavior.
Only you believe that, to anyone else it is merely telling you what you need to be told.

What gives you the idea that the Zionists are "entitled" to a homeland and more so why should another people have to be thrown off their legitimate homeland to accommodate them. Next you will be telling us that the Baptists want a homeland back in England and have the right to drive out the current population at gunpoint and just take over.
May 28th, 2014  
JOC
 
 

Topic: mixup


Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Only you believe that to anyone else it is merely telling you what you need to be told.

What gives you the idea that the Zionists are "entitled" to a homeland and more so why should another people have to be thrown off their legitimate homeland to accommodate them. Next you will be telling us that the Baptists want a homeland back in England and have the right to drive out the current population at gunpoint and just take over.
This is a mix-up. I never said the Palestinians aren't entitled to a homeland. How did you come to this conclusion?
What I said is that with the present situation how do you realistically think they will get a homeland without negotiation? Big difference. One can say oh the Jews (Zionists) came later and should pack up and leave but they aren't going to do this. So to keep saying this is unrealistic "they are not leaving". So the only realistic answer is a negotiated settlement. This is based on the situation at hand, not on any wish to see any further suffering for the Palestinian people.
Your comparison is what you said, not me.
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May 28th, 2014  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOC
This is a mix-up. I never said the Palestinians aren't entitled to a homeland. How did you come to this conclusion?
Are you thick or just being obtuse? read what I said and not what you'd like to think I said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOC
What I said is that with the present situation how do you realistically think they will get a homeland without negotiation? Big difference. One can say oh the Jews (Zionists) came later and should pack up and leave but they aren't going to do this
Twenty years ago people like you were saying the same thing about the South African blacks. You totally ignore what the world is capable of.

The Zionists will go, they are going to be out bred in the land they claim as theirs for a start, and even the real Jews (Hasidim) will help push them out of the door. They in turn will live peaceably with the Palestinians as they support their cause. The Palestinians have already reached a defacto relationship with them. Obviously you have not read the posts on this subject.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOC
So the only realistic answer is a negotiated settlement. This is based on the situation at hand, not on any wish to see any further suffering for the Palestinian people.
Your comparison is what you said, not me.
Only the Zionists believe what you say but unfortunately they do not have any leverage with which to bargain. The land they occupy is stolen and even the US is slowly disassociating themselves with the Israelis and moving more towards the Iranians. The truth is becoming undeniable and it coincides with world opinion.

Read the article again about how the US is waking up that their name is being dragged through the mud by the Israelis, not to mention that the israelis have been caught stealing secret US technology and weaponry and selling it to the Chinese. The Israelis are a far bigger threat to the US than almost any of their so called middle eastern "enemies". You haven't read (or understood) a word of this thread, have you?

To resist the theft of that which is yours, you sometimes have to suffer, but that is their choice, totally unlike the crimes committed upon them by an illegal occupier.
May 28th, 2014  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOC
One can say oh the Jews (Zionists) came later and should pack up and leave but they aren't going to do this. So to keep saying this is unrealistic "they are not leaving". So the only realistic answer is a negotiated settlement. This is based on the situation at hand, not on any wish to see any further suffering for the Palestinian people.
Out of interest what do you think a negotiated settlement would look like, what is left for the Palestinians to offer up in exchange for a viable state?

If you accept that negotiations are a two way process for example you say 10%, I say 90% and we end up with a compromise at say 50% how do you negotiate when one side has 100% and the other side has nothing?

I read these ideas about negotiations are the only way to go but in my opinion there is one reality and that is that the Palestinians have nothing to negotiate with therefore in reality you can not have negotiations as the whole process requires just one thing and that is for Israel to accept/define the borders of the Palestinian state.

The fact that they will not do that and continue to build settlements indicates that a negotiated settlement is not going to happen as long as Israel thinks it can extract more, the problem for Israel is that once a Palestinian state becomes impossible then there is no choice but for Israel to accept a one state solution and in doing that it can no longer be a "Jewish state" unless of course it chooses to go down the South African line of apartheid.
May 28th, 2014  
JOC
 
 

Topic: Pressure


Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Out of interest what do you think a negotiated settlement would look like, what is left for the Palestinians to offer up in exchange for a viable state?

If you accept that negotiations are a two way process for example you say 10%, I say 90% and we end up with a compromise at say 50% how do you negotiate when one side has 100% and the other side has nothing?

I read these ideas about negotiations are the only way to go but in my opinion there is one reality and that is that the Palestinians have nothing to negotiate with therefore in reality you can not have negotiations as the whole process requires just one thing and that is for Israel to accept/define the borders of the Palestinian state.

The fact that they will not do that and continue to build settlements indicates that a negotiated settlement is not going to happen as long as Israel thinks it can extract more, the problem for Israel is that once a Palestinian state becomes impossible then there is no choice but for Israel to accept a one state solution and in doing that it can no longer be a "Jewish state" unless of course it chooses to go down the South African line of apartheid.
The only way would be via international pressure. I.E. the Pope (yes he's a figure head, but he has sway) has invited both sides for peace talks. Yes Camp David failed but these are the type of avenues which the Israeli's can be pressured by the international community particularly the US. One thing the Palestinians have in their favor compared to many other suppressed people is that their blight is widely publicized.

Hamas will never bring Israel to the peace talks and will bring about the opposite effect. They effectively give Israel an excuse not to negotiate. The trouble how about the average Palestinian that is not a terrorist and just wants what is his.

As they become more entrenched in the West Bank it will be all the harder to get them to pull out I agree. However what is your real world solution given the situation at hand? Give each Jew a suitcase and a one way ticket to Madagascar?

I suspect Senojekips will once again object. Hopefully he can refrain from insults - derogatory remarks when he sees a posting that does not march to beat of his drum.
May 28th, 2014  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOC
The only way would be via international pressure. I.E. the Pope (yes he's a figure head, but he has sway) has invited both sides for peace talks. Yes Camp David failed but these are the type of avenues which the Israeli's can be pressured by the international community particularly the US. One thing the Palestinians have in their favor compared to many other suppressed people is that their blight is widely publicized.
No offense to Americans reading this but all the US has done is enabled the land grabs, the UN has raised countless resolutions to stop the land grabs and occupation and every one of them has been vetoed by the USA.

As for potential pressure on the Israel by the USA no chance because Israel is the largest campaign donor in American elections, you may vote for them but Israel has paid for them and owns them.

Quote:
Hamas will never bring Israel to the peace talks and will bring about the opposite effect. They effectively give Israel an excuse not to negotiate. The trouble how about the average Palestinian that is not a terrorist and just wants what is his.
Should Ireland exist as a country after all the IRA don't want peace they want the British out of Ireland?
Hamas is a red herring if you want Hamas stopped the easiest way to do it is by strengthening the Palestinian Authority and allow them to deal with crime as any other police force would.
But as you pointed out Hamas serve Israels aims more than Palestinian ones.

Quote:
As they become more entrenched in the West Bank it will be all the harder to get them to pull out I agree. However what is your real world solution given the situation at hand? Give each Jew a suitcase and a one way ticket to Madagascar?
Well in the past I have been a huge fan of the two state solution based on the 1967 lines but with land swaps to compensate for settlements that could not be uprooted, this is how most of the international community see the outcome and it is what the Palestinians have asked for.

However as time goes by I am reevaluating my views as the two state solution becomes ever more impossible to implement and now am starting to believe that the only option that will soon be available is a single state solution implemented much in the same way South Africa reintegrated in the 1990s

As for the Madagascar comment wouldn't that just be reenacting the same problems we allowed to develop in the 1940s, besides the 22 million Madagascans may object to losing a chunk of their country.

I see no reason for anyone to leave Israel/Palestine but if they were to do so it should be back to Germany, Poland and Russia where they came from.

Quote:
I suspect Senojekips will once again object. Hopefully he can refrain from insults - derogatory remarks when he sees a posting that does not march to beat of his drum.
I think you need to stop being so sensitive about what Spike or anyone else says every one has opinions and generally express them in their own way how we react to those opinions is our own problem to be dealt with.
May 28th, 2014  
JOC
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
No offense to Americans reading this but all the US has done is enabled the land grabs, the UN has raised countless resolutions to stop the land grabs and occupation and every one of them has been vetoed by the USA.

As for potential pressure on the Israel by the USA no chance because Israel is the largest campaign donor in American elections, you may vote for them but Israel has paid for them and owns them.



Should Ireland exist as a country after all the IRA don't want peace they want the British out of Ireland?
Hamas is a red herring if you want Hamas stopped the easiest way to do it is by strengthening the Palestinian Authority and allow them to deal with crime as any other police force would.
But as you pointed out Hamas serve Israels aims more than Palestinian ones.



Well in the past I have been a huge fan of the two state solution based on the 1967 lines but with land swaps to compensate for settlements that could not be uprooted, this is how most of the international community see the outcome and it is what the Palestinians have asked for.

However as time goes by I am reevaluating my views as the two state solution becomes ever more impossible to implement and now am starting to believe that the only option that will soon be available is a single state solution implemented much in the same way South Africa reintegrated in the 1990s

As for the Madagascar comment wouldn't that just be reenacting the same problems we allowed to develop in the 1940s, besides the 22 million Madagascans may object to losing a chunk of their country.

I see no reason for anyone to leave Israel/Palestine but if they were to do so it should be back to Germany, Poland and Russia where they came from.



I think you need to stop being so sensitive about what Spike or anyone else says every one has opinions and generally express them in their own way how we react to those opinions is our own problem to be dealt with.
Yes the US for one has a strong Jewish influence and we know about the effect of special interest groups in the US. I have 1/2 jokingly called it an Oligarchy because of the strong sway of special interest groups in the US. Individuals elect the President, Congress, etc. Once in office the individual is often forgotten for the highest bidder so to speak. Perhaps this is true in many democracies I don't know? Well I've gotten off track.

Monty I was being factious about Madagascar. I like your solution about a single state with equal rights for all. That is likely the only workable solution since it's a win-win. I just wonder if it's workable given the hard feelings in the area?

I disagree. Calling names weakens ones argument. It basically says your discussion isn't strong enough and you must put others down to try and prove - further your point - position.
May 29th, 2014  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOC
Hamas will never bring Israel to the peace talks and will bring about the opposite effect. They effectively give Israel an excuse not to negotiate.
Hamas are a legally elected Government and the only reason they were elected is that they were seen by the Palestinian people as the only hope for a political party that would resist the Israeli oppression and murders. They don't want a Quisling Government who just sells them out to their enemies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOC
The trouble how about the average Palestinian that is not a terrorist and just wants what is his.
Do you realise what you just said?... this has been my argument all along. The Palestinians only want what is legally theirs.

My Gt. gt. Grandfather bought land (presumably from a Turkish landlord) in Palestine in 1854 and moved there with his family, from London in 1856 after the birth of my Gt Grandfather. He lived in harmony with the Palestinians because he didn't steal from them nor murder their women and children to drive them off their land, in fact he employed many of them. It was not until Zionism raised it's ugly head that the trouble started with land theft and refusal to obey the law of the land that my Gt Grandfather decided to get out and most of the family came to Australia c. 1890-5.
Unfortunately the Israelis have made it such that you can't give back the land and possessions of the Palestinians ans still have the Israelis living in their homes and using their land, as they would both be living in the same space, one house two families, one olive grove two owners.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOC
Monty I was being factious about Madagascar. I like your solution about a single state with equal rights for all. That is likely the only workable solution since it's a win-win. I just wonder if it's workable given the hard feelings in the area?
What a lot of rubbish. Win-win you say?...
If I stole everything you owned and treated you and your family like animals, harassing, beating and murdering them whenever it suited me, do you think it would be a win-win if I kept inviting you to discussions to return just a small portion of your own property, at the same time imposing such rediculous claims that you could never possibly agree?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JOC
I disagree. Calling names weakens ones argument. It basically says your discussion isn't strong enough and you must put others down to try and prove - further your point - position.
A typical losers excuse, and typical of those who want everything their own way not willing to face facts. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and lays duck eggs, there's a better than even chance it's a duck. You seem to think that unfairness on your behalf is OK so long as you (or your country) get what they want, and who gives a flying fcuk that it supports the oppression and illegal occupation of the land of another people.
May 29th, 2014  
JOC
 
 

Topic: ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Hamas are a legally elected Government and the only reason they were elected is that they were seen by the Palestinian people as the only hope for a political party that would resist the Israeli oppression and murders. They don't want a Quisling Government who just sells them out to their enemies.
Do you realise what you just said?... this has been my argument all along. The Palestinians only want what is legally theirs.

My Gt. gt. Grandfather bought land (presumably from a Turkish landlord) in Palestine in 1854 and moved there with his family, from London in 1856 after the birth of my Gt Grandfather. He lived in harmony with the Palestinians because he didn't steal from them nor murder their women and children to drive them off their land, in fact he employed many of them. It was not until Zionism raised it's ugly head that the trouble started with land theft and refusal to obey the law of the land that my Gt Grandfather decided to get out and most of the family came to Australia c. 1890-5.
Unfortunately the Israelis have made it such that you can't give back the land and possessions of the Palestinians ans still have the Israelis living in their homes and using their land, as they would both be living in the same space, one house two families, one olive grove two owners.
What a lot of rubbish. Win-win you say?...
If I stole everything you owned and treated you and your family like animals, harassing, beating and murdering them whenever it suited me, do you think it would be a win-win if I kept inviting you to discussions to return just a small portion of your own property, at the same time imposing such rediculous claims that you could never possibly agree?

A typical losers excuse, and typical of those who want everything their own way not willing to face facts. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and lays duck eggs, there's a better than even chance it's a duck. You seem to think that unfairness on your behalf is OK so long as you (or your country) get what they want, and who gives a flying fcuk that it supports the oppression and illegal occupation of the land of another people.
I assume from the nature of your post you believe I desire for continued unfair treatment of the Palestinian's. Kindly reread What I've written and how they also relate to "quotes" others have posted to before making this judgment. I may view the situation differently than you " which is the very nature of the Forum". But I never justified the mistreatment of the Palestinians or any other group for that matter! Lets get straight on that. I have met some Palestinians that wish this whole situation would go away, limited access to running water and electricity, etc. I really don't know what else I can say on this matter. I understand your stand that it's an illegal occupation and it's time for them to leave, however I just don't see that happening. When Monty brought up the transition to a country of tolerance this sounds like the best possible solution. Like South Africa which is now a shining star in Africa. Is this possible it's not for me to say.
 


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