Israel, Heroes or Terrorists.

[greg2k]

Why do you ask such a thing?

There is absolutely no correlation between the graph, and War Crimes or contraventions of the UDHR, it is merely an indication of how many have died on either side.

I am asking this question because we discuss very serious things,we discauss War Crimes and Vilolation of the Human Rights.So...what we have now....
We have a situation ,that for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict everything was clear to you who is a quilty party,in the case of WWII it was not so clear....to you or maybe it was also clear but....you did not give an answer.And this is the whole point.The charts are the same....right.They are talking about killed people.Regarding one chart you are quick with answer,with another chart you are not. So...after this I hope we will not try to compare israeli -palestinian conflict to WWII and nazis again.If you do, I will remind you about this Post 81

OK...lets talk about Israel and democracy.
Post 56

What you be talkin 'bout!!!
The Palestinians you call Arabs(YORDIM)have extra "PRIVLIDGES" in Israel:
-Extra Judicial execution
-arrest without trial
-torture
-home demolition
-deportation
-land confiscation
-limited water access
-yellow licence plates
-banned from "Jewish Only" roads
Jonathan Cook,British Journalist based in Nazereth has extensively documented Israeli Apartheid.
www.jkcook.net/

Post 68

Fact,... Israel is not democratic,...
(1) Arabic Israeli citizens cannot buy state owned land in Israel.
The [Israeli] state under colour of law effectively prevents any non-Jew from leasing or holding any rights ... to 90 percent of the land in Israel. We also know that after many complaints Israel made several small "token exceptions" to silence critics but by and large the law stands.
(2)Israel's law of return is discriminatory because it gives Jews from anywhere in the world the right to live in Israel while Palestinians cannot enter their own country.
(3)Israeli ID documents must show whether the holder is Arabic or Jewish. Can you imagine the outcry if we Australian's made Aborigines or migrants have specially marked documentation?
Need I go on,....... there are literally hundreds of these discriminatory laws, NO! Israel is not democratic unless you are Jewish.

1.I am not aware of any extra judiciaty execution in Israel.If you know these cases,we can discuss them.
2.I am not aware of arrests without trial in Israel.
3.Torture...could be,please provide the known fact what happened about torture in Israel and we will discuss this on case by case basis.
4.Home demolition...well yes there are cases of home demolition..jewish homes,arab homes,illegal homes,old homes...etc,the list can be big.If there is a problem with demolition. 5.Deportation..I dont know any cases of deportation of israeli citizens from the country.
6.Land confiscation...I did not hear cases of land confiscation in Israel...,please clarify what you mean.
7.Limited water access...well...to whom?to the jews?to the arabs? not clear.Clarify and provide facts of limited access..
8.Yellow license plates...As far as i know all motor vechicles in Israel have israeli plates with i guess same color.If i am wrong..correct me with information.
9.Banned from 'Jewish Only'' Roads...Well...if in the state of Israel these roads exist,this alone would make Israel apartheid state,i dont know about existance such roads only for jews on the terrotory of the jewish state.
10.Arab and jewish citizens of Israel have same rights with the question of land in Israel.If i am wrong provide information that this is not so.
11.Israel is a jewish state,and israeli Government establish the Law of Immigration,like the governments in many countries in the World.
12.Israeli ID doesn't specifically indicate the nationality of a person.If you have other information you can provide it.

 

[senojekips]

I don't know what you are looking for as this graph has nothing whatsoever to do with crimes against humanity. It is just a list of approximately how many have died on either side.

For the absolute last time, I have NEVER said that the conflicts are the same, and I defy you to find a post where I have done so.

What I said was,.... for the third time.

---snip--- the behaviour of the Israeli troops towards the Palestinian people was similar,.. No,.... very similar, to the behaviour of German troops towards the Jews.---snip---

If you repeat this false accusation again you may consider this conversation finished. I do not care if you tell lies about the Israelis, but do not try doing it with me. It will not work.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1.I am no aware of any extrajudiciaty execution in Israel.If you know these cases,we can discuss them.
2.I have no aware of arrests without trial in Israel.
3.Torture...could be,please provide the known fact what happened about torture in Israel and we will discuss this on case by case basis.
4.Home demolition...well yes there are cases of home demolition..jewish homes,arab homes,illegal homes,old homes...etc,the list can be big.If there is a problem with demolition. 5.Deportation..I dont know any cases of deportation of israeli citizens from the country.
6.Land confiscation...I did not hear cases of land confiscation in Israel...,please clarify what you mean.
7.Limited water access...well...to whom?to the jews?to the arabs? not clear.Clarify and provide facts of limited access..
8.Yellow license plates...As far as i know all motor vechicles in Israel have israeli plates with i guess same color.If i am wrong..correct me with information.
9.Banned from 'Jewish Only'' Roads...Well...if in the state of Israel these roads exist,this alone would make Israel apartheid state,i dont know about existance such roads only for jews on the terrotory of the jewish state.
10.Arab and jewish citizens of Israel have same rights with the question of land in Israel.If i am wrong provide information that this is not so.
11.Israel is a jewish state,and israeli Government establish the Law of Immigration,like the governments in many countries in the World.
12.Israeli ID doesn't specifically indicate the nationality of a person.If you have other information you can provide it.

Below is the list of things shown on an Israeli ID document please note number 7.

• unique number, called Identity Number
• full name (surname/last name, given name)
• name of father
• name of mother
• date of birth (both civil and—for Jews—the Hebrew date as well)[3]
• place of birth[4]
• ethnicity (only in cards issued before 2005, but the Hebrew date of birth still differentiates Jews from non-Jews)
• gender
• place and date of issue (both Gregorian and Hebrew date)
• portrait photo (in color)

I have answered Q. 12 but realised that all of this has been quoted with sources which you have obviously ignored, so there is no need to discuss any of this, as it is all freely available on the internet, and links to the sources have been posted, please do your own research instead wasting other peoples time doing it for you. We also have lives to live, and cannot spend all of our time doing research for you. If you want to defend your argument you must do it yourself.

 

[greg2k]

I have answered Q. 12 but realised that all of this has been quoted with sources which you have obviously ignored, so there is no need to discuss any of this, as it is all freely available on the internet, and links to the sources have been posted, please do your own research instead wasting other peoples time doing it for you. We also have lives to live, and cannot spend all of our time doing research for you. If you want to defend your argument you must do it yourself..Below is the list of things shown on an Israeli ID document please note number 7.

• unique number, called Identity Number
• full name (surname/last name, given name)
• name of father
• name of mother
• date of birth (both civil and—for Jews—the Hebrew date as well)[3]
• place of birth[4]
• ethnicity (only in cards issued before 2005, but the Hebrew date of birth still differentiates Jews from non-Jews)
• gender
• place and date of issue (both Gregorian and Hebrew date)
• portrait photo (in color)

This information i found on internet regarding israeli cards: http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/App/TalkBack/CdaViewOpenTalkBack/0,11382,L-3800513,00.html "as of 1989 all Israeli identity cards listed nationality in the card along with the additional sentence reading at the bottom of the card reading in Hebrew translated here for you: "According to section 3 of the law of population registry of 1965 the items of personal status and nationality (leum) must be verified."Since the mid-90s the line for Leum (Nationality) was removed from the identity cards however there are still two ways to know by reviewing an identity card whether or not the holder of the id card is Jewish 1. the Hebrew date of birth of the holder of the ID card is listed next to the secular birthdate and 2. each ID number holds within it a specific coded series number which indicates whether or not the holder of the ID card is Jewish" OK...so two points to discuss-date of birth and special coded ID number.jews and arabs have differnet dates of birth identification for the religious purpose only,for example for burial services in case of death.Arabs and jews have different cemeteries,according to their religions.Jewish and muslem calendars are different,so for jews and muslems it is impossible to have same religious date of birth.Coded identity number is important only to the authorities for personal identification of each person who is the holder of the ID card.It is not open to the public.Like in any countries in the world,personal ID number provides all computerized information about the ID holder.It is important for security reason everywhere ,not only in Israel.The question about special coded ID cards arises from foregners,not from israeli arab citizens,who dont want assimilate with the jews anyway.

 

[senojekips]

Please read my post again. It clearly states that Ethnicity was only listed up until 2005. Since that time all Jewish ID documents have the Hebrew date shown whereas no one else does, this effectively still indicates those of non Jewish origin even if they are Israeli citizens.

It is nothing to do with assimilation or anything else, but it does clearly indicate non Jews. (Arabs are non Jews). I am not interested in pages of totally unrelated information.

 

[greg2k]

Please read my post again. It clearly states that Ethnicity was only listed up until 2005. Since that time all Jewish ID documents have the Hebrew date shown whereas no one else does, this effectively still indicates those of non Jewish origin even if they are Israeli citizens.

If the holder of ID is muslem arab,how his date of birth is indicated on israeli ID?

 

[senojekips]

PLEASE,... PLEASE read the answers already given, I am about to terminate this discussion with you as I am sick of repeating things that have already been posted, some of them 3 or 4 times.

A Palestinian's birthdate is denoted in English (Arabic) numbers, a Jew's birth date is in English and Hebrew script.

ethnicity (only in cards issued before 2005, but the Hebrew date of birth still differentiates Jews from non-Jews)

In future any question requiring me to repeat an earlier post, will not be answered, as you are just wasting my time.

 

[greg2k]

PLEASE,... PLEASE read the answers already given. A Palestinian's birthdate is denoted in English (Arabic) numbers, a Jew's birth date is in Hebrew script.

How do you suggest to indicate muslem and jewish days of birth?both of them using same calendars?So what calendar do you suggest to use?

 

[senojekips]

Either one,... or both, but only so long as ID documents for all Israeli citizens are the same and and people are not discriminated against because of their ethnicity.

 

[greg2k]

Either one,... or both, but only so long as ID documents for all Israeli citizens are the same and and people are not discriminated against because of their ethnicity.

So you suggest to use gregorian calendar to indicate birth days of jews and muslems?YES?...NO? What calendar you use in australia? Do you have jews and muslems there?you tell me.......... it is a nice circus with you here.....

 

[senojekips]

So you suggest to use gregorian calendar to indicate birth days of jews and muslems?YES?...NO? What calendar you use in australia? Do you have jews and muslems there?you tell me.......... it is a nice circus with you here.....

Yes you idiot,... we do have Jews and Muslims here and have had for several hundred years. And what's more, the dates are the same for every Australian citizen, and there is no other indication of a person's ethnicity.

I see that now your time wasting tactics have been exposed you resort to personal insults. Well, you are a dead loss in that respect too, just as you were, trying to justify the Nazi behaviour of the Israelis. I'll take that as an admission of your failure.:lol:

 

[senojekips]

So you suggest to use gregorian calendar to indicate birth days of jews and muslems?YES?...NO? What calendar you use in australia? Do you have jews and muslems there?you tell me.......... it is a nice circus with you here.....

Yes you clown,... we do have Jews and Muslims here, and we have had for several hundred years. And what's more, the dates are the same for every Australian citizen, and there is no other indication of a person's ethnicity on any identifying document.

I see that now your time wasting tactics have been exposed you resort to personal insults. Well, you are a dead loss in that respect too, just as you were, trying to justify the Nazi like behaviour of the Israelis.

I will take that as an admission of your failure. :lol:

 

[greg2k]

Yes you idiot,... we do have Jews and Muslims here and have had for several hundred years. And what's more, the dates are the same for every Australian citizen, and there is no other indication of a person's ethnicity.

I see that now your time wasting tactics have been exposed you resort to personal insults. Well, you are a dead loss in that respect too, just as you were, trying to justify the Nazi behaviour of the Israelis. I'll take that as an admission of your failure.:lol:

Well.....sooner or later .....it should be ended like that.I promised to remind you about Post 81...so here you are again.I asked you about Auistralia...in order to indicate...how disrespectful your country is toward other religions.....any other religion ...but christianity.Of course you have jews.....but they are more australians than jews,of course you have muslems....but they are more australians than muslems...you give them same iD cards...and disrespect their religions.And Israel does not do these things.....Israel respects their own religion.....and others.That's why Israeli ID CARDS,which all have same jewish script,have two sets of birth dates,one secular date of birth for jews and muslems and another religious days of birth,according to each religion......So read this.....again and again...and you will get it.... the sooner the better...And now I will take the rest.It took me some time to talk to you.....i knew since the beginning...that i am talking to mediocrity.....when i started to talk to you in USS Liberty forum....but sooner or later you will get it. So learn and dont be lazy to search the internet...you will feel much better after that...and not like you are feeling now.

 

[senojekips]

Well.....sooner or later .....it should be ended like that.I promised to remind you about Post 81...so here you are again.I asked you about Auistralia...in order to indicate...how disrespectful your country is toward other religions.....any other religion ...but christianity.Of course you have jews.....but they are more australians than jews,of course you have muslems....but they are more australians than muslems...you give them same iD cards...and disrespect their religions.And Israel does not do these things.....Israel respects their own religion.....and others.

I don't need reminding of Posts , I read them and understand them, I do not ask to have them answered 3 or more times.

Ohhh,.. yes, we know how much Israel respects them,... it respects their religion so much it steals their land, beats them to death and murders their women and children.

A fantastic example of understanding and respect

You have failed miserably.

 

[radarsonar]

Arab nations are very aggressive and religious fanatics. Israel deals with them in the only language they understand - violence. Yes, its sad to see innocent Palestine women and children suffer, and Israel needs to be more tolerant and try peaceful methods (which would need a strong leader who is willing to sacrifice some Palestine demands for long term peace)

 

[senojekips]

Arab nations are very aggressive and religious fanatics. Israel deals with them in the only language they understand - violence. Yes, its sad to see innocent Palestine women and children suffer, and Israel needs to be more tolerant and try peaceful methods (which would need a strong leader who is willing to sacrifice some Palestine demands for long term peace)

Generalisations are fine, but they are not very often an accurate indication of the real facts. Also, I can't agree that Arab nations are naturally "aggressive", in this case they are being defensive against a larger better armed occupier.

Did you ever stop to consider exactly why the Palestinians are fighting the Israelis. Put yourself in their place for a minute, wouldn't you fight to stop occupiers from stealing your land and effectively making you a second class citizen in your own county.

 

[Warwick]

Well.....sooner or later .....it should be ended like that.I promised to remind you about Post 81...so here you are again.I asked you about Auistralia...in order to indicate...how disrespectful your country is toward other religions.....any other religion ...but christianity.Of course you have jews.....but they are more australians than jews,of course you have muslems....but they are more australians than muslems...you give them same iD cards...and disrespect their religions.And Israel does not do these things.....Israel respects their own religion.....and others.That's why Israeli ID CARDS,which all have same jewish script,have two sets of birth dates,one secular date of birth for jews and muslems and another religious days of birth,according to each religion......So read this.....again and again...and you will get it.... the sooner the better...And now I will take the rest.It took me some time to talk to you.....i knew since the beginning...that i am talking to mediocrity.....when i started to talk to you in USS Liberty forum....but sooner or later you will get it. So learn and dont be lazy to search the internet...you will feel much better after that...and not like you are feeling now.

In Australia we are Australian's and not specified by our religion. And we are quite the ethnic hot pot of various races. And surprisingly, we do all get along resonably well. We do have our problems same as any multi cultural nation. Your post saying we are disrespectful of other religions is quite frankly insulting and ill informed.

 

[greg2k]

In Australia we are Australian's and not specified by our religion.

Israel is a jewish country,where jews want to be jews,especially this apply to religious jews.And as you know,jewish calendar is differnet from christian one.So religious jews, and not only them,want their birth date indicated in accordance with jewish calendar.Muslem arabs in Israel have their own calendar,and they dont want to be look like jews in Israel,and this is their right.

 

[fuser]

Israel is nothing but a terroist state violating every international law...
Illegally taking lands, killing civillians,and they are able to do this because of the big hand under their head of their loving uncle Sam...

They have been able to force war, terrorize population...

Just look at the map

 

[senojekips]

Today we are finding a generation of adult Israelis who are so indoctrinated by their own propaganda that they no longer even know the truth of this matter which now brings a considerable degree of ignorance to the debate whereas once it was merely intolerance, this makes it impossible to even talk sensibly to them on the subject.

Many are not even aware of the War of 1948 when the Palestinians were forcibly expropriated of their lands and driven into neighbouring countries, from which they were then forbidden to return. (The Nakba)

Only now we are starting to see more and more Jewish organisations and individuals who are willing to face the world and admit that the Israelis stole the land from it's owners. Organisations like B'Tselem, Zochrot and to a lesser degree Neturei Karta. Also many noted Jews such as Dr Hajo Meier, a survivor of the Death Camps are speaking out against Zionist lies and hatred that have led to the wrongful expulsion of the Palestinians from their own land. Dr Meier even goes so far as to support the argument that the Israelis are doing exactly as the Nazis did in the pre war period. He should know, he lived through it.

Zochrot Speaks Out

 

[Korean Seaboy]

Personally, I don't hate Jews. I have some Jewish friends and one of my best friends is Jewish.
However, I do hate the government of Israel. Just because I hate the government doesn't mean that I hate the people. For example, just because you hated Nazi Germany means that you hate all Germans? Same case.
I think the government of Israel is very arrogant when dealing with the international community and especially Muslims and Palestinians.
Also, the reclaiming of Jerusalem by Israel makes no sense to me. I mean, if you can claim simply that Jerusalem was once your city, does that mean it's yours now? Then, Korea (I'm speaking NK and SK unified because it was ancient times) should have territory as far away as to Manchuria. What about Britain. During its empire's height, Britain controlled one-fourth of all Earth's land. That makes no sense. Even if Jerusalem is your holy city, then the Muslims have equal rights to Jerusalem, even if the city is half-divided, the Israelis have a bigger share when thinking of other factors.