Iran , Why ? - Page 6




 
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Boots
 
March 6th, 2015  
JOC
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetvet
Morality in an all out war cannot exist as in the fight with Japan and Germany the Bombing of Dresden and nuking Japan are good examples of that .
Yes but in Europe (except for some die hard Nazi's) most everybody was glad to see the Allied troops. Even in areas of France, Belgium, Italy and some parts of Germany that were heavily bombed and fought over where civilian causalities were high.
March 6th, 2015  
lljadw
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by brinktk
Then I think we are in fundamental disagreement and no amount of debate on the issue is going to resolve it between you and I.

I'd tend to the think that humans can rise to the occassion if challenged to, while others believe that humans will only sloop to the lowest level. A state may come or go based off the decisions it makeS People will always survive. "I was just following orders" was deemed unacceptable at Nuremberg, and is unacceptable to this day. If you think people like William Calley got justice under the law, and that it should be accepted...I don't know what else to say.

Technically, the men of Captain Medina's company were legal in everything they did at My Lai. They were operating in a Free Fire Zone where all the civillians had been "evacuated". They were expecting a Viet Cong battalion and the rules of engagements authorized them to act accordingly...why even make a distinction then? Why even have a trial in the first place? Had those pictures not been published the war would have gone on, business as usual...does that make it right? By the way you are sounding, the only thing they did wrong was get caught...

I guess your life is worth more than mine...

If there is no such thing as morailty is there also no such thing as ethics? How is it different if there is?


There will come a time, as it usually goes, when people stop accepting getting lied to and crapped on. When that day comes, it is usually the people who were "pragmatic" that end up strung by piano wire...food for thought.
I never said that Calley got justice under the law : law and justice are not the same thing .I just pointed out the difference in treatment between Slovik and Calley,one of the reasons of which was that morality had varied .
I also never said that morality does not exist,but that morality in private live is not the same as morality in public live .There are a lot of cases (even when there is peace) where lying and cheating are not only allowed,advisable but necessary to survive .The classic exemple is Smith who never would think of stealing something but every year is cheating the tax authorities .

Other point : most people prefer to get lied,because the truth is unwelcome .

Last point : Calley only was condemned because he was caught,otherwise no one would knew what happened .Calley had a reverse .
March 6th, 2015  
Yossarian
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOC
Yes but in Europe (except for some die hard Nazi's) most everybody was glad to see the Allied troops. Even in areas of France, Belgium, Italy and some parts of Germany that were heavily bombed and fought over where civilian causalities were high.

Also Europe and Japan in the post war period were two examples of Nation building that worked much more effectively than in Iraq and Afghanistan.

But in order for that to have happened it took overwhelming victory over two industrialized nations.

People in both Japan and Germany knew what it was like in a modern 20th Century country, and understood that they wanted to get back to that pre war prosperity and the chance to do so wasn't something to pass up. So the Allies for the most part succeeded here.

The Middle East however.... Is so secular and subdivided that this notion almost impossible to achieve after an U.S. invasion, Iraq now is splintered and fractured on centuries old divisions. Afghanistan is still just.... Afghanistan.

And we are no closer to the dream democratic states there we have always stated we would establish there. Partly as well being Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan and even Iran's borders were not drawn by their own people. Iraq and Syria by the Turks and Europeans for example. And the Europeans in particular didn't care in their territorial border cut a native ethnic group right in half inside two countries despite living there for centuries.

And people wonder why groups like ISIS do not acknowledge national borders, they did not draw them, the Europeans did.

Iran in my humble outlook would be another shattered lawless struggle of instability and a haven for more extremists violence. Hence a military option for us Americans in negotiating with Iran runs so many risks with so little gains.
--
Boots
March 6th, 2015  
tetvet
 
The Italians , Japanese and Germans say the best way to win a war is to Lose one to the U.S.
March 6th, 2015  
Kesse81
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetvet
Why is the U.S. trying so hard to negotiate a nuke deal with Iran ? Iran will never honor any deal and the U.S. could make Iran disappear in the blink of an eye .
Since both economic sanctions and the threat of military sanctions appear to have failed, a dialogue between Iran and the United States both in relation to Israel / Palestine, to Iraq and Afghanistan and Iran's nuclear program, apparently is the only solution if the goal is stability in the Middle East.
March 6th, 2015  
JOC
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yossarian
Also Europe and Japan in the post war period were two examples of Nation building that worked much more effectively than in Iraq and Afghanistan.

But in order for that to have happened it took overwhelming victory over two industrialized nations.

People in both Japan and Germany knew what it was like in a modern 20th Century country, and understood that they wanted to get back to that pre war prosperity and the chance to do so wasn't something to pass up. So the Allies for the most part succeeded here.

The Middle East however.... Is so secular and subdivided that this notion almost impossible to achieve after an U.S. invasion, Iraq now is splintered and fractured on centuries old divisions. Afghanistan is still just.... Afghanistan.

And we are no closer to the dream democratic states there we have always stated we would establish there. Partly as well being Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan and even Iran's borders were not drawn by their own people. Iraq and Syria by the Turks and Europeans for example. And the Europeans in particular didn't care in their territorial border cut a native ethnic group right in half inside two countries despite living there for centuries.

And people wonder why groups like ISIS do not acknowledge national borders, they did not draw them, the Europeans did.

Iran in my humble outlook would be another shattered lawless struggle of instability and a haven for more extremists violence. Hence a military option for us Americans in negotiating with Iran runs so many risks with so little gains.
In the case of Germany they never had a long democratic history. (Germany floundered under the Weimer Republic for ~ 14 years, but it was a government imposed on them to a large degree and was never popular). The main thing was they were absolutely defeat militarily and their homeland was reduced to ash. In fact even though Japan felt the effect of 2 atomic bombs, Germany was more thoroughly devastated since they lost >> 1/2 million to allied bombing (some say 1 million), nearly every acre of the country was fought over and they under went the ravages of a vengeful Red Army. There was nothing left to resist with and even if they wanted least 7 to 8 million foreign troops were on their soil at wars end. They were not in a position not to cooperate with the Allies and even the Soviets in the East. They had little food, most - much of the infrastructure had been destroyed.

This kind of all out destruction just wouldn't be tolerated in todays world. Nor is it justifiable. No ME country is in a position to threaten the world with take over (or large portions of it). So now the US and the allies have a problem where do you draw the line? In the ME we don't want to endanger or piss off our oil rich allies, their is the east vs. west struggle that's been going on since the 50's and is still going on. Then at the same time the US supports Israel. What a tangled web is weaved. Some say Saudi Arabia is against ISIS since they fear the extremist, yet rich Saudi's may be bankrolling them since they are Sunni's? Fear of Iranian nukes? Some claim Iran is a paper tiger? It's everyone against Israel, however most of them are to busy with their own rivalries to do much to Israel, at least since the Yom Kippur War.
I believe the US has every right to try and keep terrorists at bay via air strikes and special forces operations. I'm beginning to wonder what else we can do in this enigma called the ME.
March 7th, 2015  
tetvet
 
They weren't over joyed to see the Russians .
March 7th, 2015  
tetvet
 
Calley was last see selling used cars in Georgia , 1975 .
March 7th, 2015  
JOC
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetvet
They weren't over joyed to see the Russians .
The Germans were terrified of the Red onslaught. The Reds killed ~ a million German civilians. Stalin turned a blind eye to the this basically feeling they were getting what they deserved. They murdered, raped and looted through out Germany's eastern provinces.
My Fathers friend was in Berlin at the time it fell to the Red Army. and he said the reds stopped a bus ordered everyone off. They shot all the men and then raped all the women right there on the pavement.
True story.
March 7th, 2015  
tetvet
 
The Russians are a mongrel race they were roughly handled by the Mongols as was most of Eastern Europe the Mongols were barely human and they passed it on .
 


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